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oh god pls no

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It's a problem that they are even using that sort of language this early in development.  From this consumer's stand point at least.

 

 

if the possibility was so small, like many people try to claim here, then why would they even mention it so early on?

 

From my stand point ACE shows us they have multiple options to fix potential problems. That doesn't mean the current option doesn't work. I see this only as positive. They're not going to stuck with only one option, but are willing to iterate and change features if they don't work. But only then. Now, there is no problem.


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The reason why they said they went away from telegraphs and to an aiming system was because of having to aim/target at enemies on castle walls that are elevated above the player. Can go check those old telegraph threads and see for yourself its fact not hyperbole.  

 

Also they are not starting at aim assist because its not in the game and won't be in the initial combat system. They used the word IF, as in IF they need to make targeting easier than they MAY go to some kind of aim assist.

There is an inherent difference between the concept of trying telegraphs and then iterating, and claiming that that is the only reason they had ever even considered reticle aiming... i guarantee you they had considered it before that, they just opted to go a different route and then went back to it.  At some point long before anything we had seen they decided "what kind of aiming should we go with for our action combat?  should it be reticle, telegraphs, hybrid tab target, etc etc?"  they considered it then, and wanted to try telegraphs....

 

They are starting with a concern for less proficient players.... basically comparing it to EQN.... they are starting from a lesser point of player skill mattering... that's a red flag to some people...

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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There is an inherent difference between the concept of trying telegraphs and then iterating, and claiming that that is the only reason they had ever even considered reticle aiming... i guarantee you they had considered it before that, they just opted to go a different route and then went back to it.  At some point long before anything we had seen they decided "what kind of aiming should we go with for our action combat?  should it be reticle, telegraphs, hybrid tab target, etc etc?"  they considered it then, and wanted to try telegraphs....

 

They are starting with a concern for less proficient players.... basically comparing it to EQN.... they are starting from a lesser point of player skill mattering... that's a red flag to some people...

It was A reason not THE reason, fine not going to argue semantics all day with you.

 

They are not starting where you think they are. Does the word "IF" mean nothing to you?

 

They have a starting point, its not aim assist or soft targeting. Its the way you want it.

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As we have 2 physical-ranged archetypes (stalker/ranger), maybe one of them could use free aim and the other use assisted aiming.

 

It would at least allow some players to have a more twitch / high skill ceiling ranged type of experience, while casual players could stick with the other.

Edited by courant101

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As we have 2 physical-ranged archetypes (stalker/ranger), maybe one of them could use free aim and the other use assisted aiming.

 

It would at least allow some players to have a more twitch / high skill ceiling ranged type of experience, while casual players could stick with the other.

 

Skill should always be rewarded though. So the aim assist should have a (damage) penalty. But I don't think they should go with this weird hybrid targeting stuff at all.

 

Let's just hope the manual aim they are working on now doesn't cause problems for the majority of us so ACE doesn't have to go this route.


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It was A reason not THE reason, fine not going to argue semantics all day with you.

 

They are not starting where you think they are. Does the word "IF" mean nothing to you?

 

They have a starting point, its not aim assist or soft targeting. Its the way you want it.

I'm not trying to argue semantics with you, the whole point was to point out a posters hyperbolic tendencies in his claims against manual aiming.  

 

I'm not worried about the "IF", i'm worried about the red flags i'm seeing. 

 

They shouldn't be worried about that kinda "IF" this early unless somewhere in their mind there is some sort of priority to make the game easy. 

 

Let me ask you this... what if they had said the same thing, but the IF became "tab targeting" instead of aim assist?  Pretty big deal right?

 

Things like aim assist are terrible, they ruin the legitimacy of and respect for a game from the big pvp crowds. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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They could implement soft targetting in a variety of measures without impacting the whole game.

 

For instance, perhaps the Ranger has a hunter's mark type ability that, for a very short time, causes all of his projectiles to follow/sway toward the marked target. Perhaps if a certain Archetype requires this type of skill to remain viable, you just implement as part of his core kit (right click or C key).


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I'm not trying to argue semantics with you, the whole point was to point out a posters hyperbolic tendencies in his claims against manual aiming.  

 

I'm not worried about the "IF", i'm worried about the red flags i'm seeing. 

 

They shouldn't be worried about that kinda "IF" this early unless somewhere in their mind there is some sort of priority to make the game easy. 

 

Let me ask you this... what if they had said the same thing, but the IF became "tab targeting" instead of aim assist?  Pretty big deal right?

 

Things like aim assist are terrible, they ruin the legitimacy of and respect for a game from the big pvp crowds. 

My only point was that they have a starting point and it does not include aim assist or soft targeting.

 

No it doesn't concern me, yet. Them mentioning back up plans and plans to tweak the system to make combat fun also doesn't concern me just the opposite actually. IF that IF becomes reality then yes I'll be concerned with how far they go down that spectrum Blair mentioned.

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Skill should always be rewarded though. So the aim assist should have a (damage) penalty. But I don't think they should go with this weird hybrid targeting stuff at all.

 

Let's just hope the manual aim they are working on now doesn't cause problems for the majority of us so ACE doesn't have to go this route.

 

I agree with you, and hopefully they don't need to rely on too many things to help people land arrows.

 

Otherwise, what I suggest is that Ranger would have manual aim for basic attack and powers, while the stalker would have aim assistance for both.

 

It would make one character easier to play, but with low skill ceiling, and the other harder to play, but more rewarding as you wrote.

 

Ranger : bullet drop, high distance, manual aim, high damage

Stalker : not bullet drop, limited distance, assisted aim, medium damage

Edited by courant101

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Ranger+stalker is a bad place to build in that particular dichotomy since they have very different functions: Ranger is a stealth class while Stalker is anti-stealth. I definitely don't want to cripple either my subs or my subhunters with a low skill cap.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

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Let's just hope the manual aim they are working on now doesn't cause problems for the majority of us so ACE doesn't have to go this route.

 

It didn't look that promising to me....

 

Blair: "It might just end up that some powers stay with manual aim for the purpose of siege warfare and are more unweildy if used against players"

 

More than anything it appears like manual aiming is being underestimated and considered only in terms of a sieging utility.

Again, we already seen this behavior before, when they first talked about friendly fire *maybe* being removed from easier rulesets.


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It's a problem that they are even using that sort of language this early in development.  From this consumer's stand point at least.

It's suppose to be a level of transparency that goes well beyond the normal game and process. We paid to hear and watch the sausage making, don't get queasy now that you're seeing blood :)

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More than anything it appears like manual aiming is being underestimated and considered only in terms of a sieging utility.

 

I think ACE does everything they can to make manual aiming work in Crowfall. But sometimes things do not go the way you want. And this certainly holds true to game design. If somehow manual aim doesn't work I'll be disappointed as well. I'll even be disgruntled. I'll curse and maybe throw things. I'm sure ACE will feel the same. Well somewhat. But the time to be concerned that ACE has abandoned manual aiming has not arrived yet. Not by a long shot. (Get it? I know, I know. ;)

 

In the recent interview with Raph Koster (http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/9888) he says:

 

I go in thinking, "This isn't my game. They have a vision. They have something they're trying to accomplish. How do I help them make their own ideas, their vision, their game better?" 

 

This how you should see this! This is how you, me and all others should test the game and give feedback. Manual aiming doesn't work? Okay, what can we do next that does work? Even if your preference is otherwise. We're here to help ACE make their game, not to force them to do things our way.

 

I'm not saying you and others are doing that, but I think people are assuming a bit too much on the bad side of things. Which I can understand to a certain degree, we've all been disappointed by developers in the past. ACE is trying to be transparent (and they really are), but the info they're giving us is constantly misread (on purpose or not).

Edited by Canth

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I am glad they are keeping options open.  There is a fine line between ones skill and ones connection.  I do not want a game where melee is easy to play and all they have to do is jump around like some twitch wonderful person and win.  I do not want a game where there is tab target and melee can be kited all day by ranged.  I want something in between not based on an uber connection to win.  A twitch FPS game is what they also said from the beginning that they do not want either.

 

I like the approach they are eluding to, if it makes sense for a specific skill to be soft target based then they will do it.  If a certain skill makes more sense to be free wielding based then that is what they will use for that skill.  If something requires something else they will use that.  This gives us a good mix of different types of targeting systems that best fits the skill used.  

 

Why would they not do it this way?  They want the best possible combat system they can have based on all the factors involved.  Lets be realistic here, tera or wildstar combat, has not lit the world on fire as far as combat is concerned.  The most popular game still is wow, tab target combat.  I like action combat when it makes sense based on the skill being used.  I think the perfect combat system is a combo of all systems based on need of the skill.  Player skill is utilized best in the system that encompasses all the systems and make you think more.

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I'm not trying to argue semantics with you, the whole point was to point out a posters hyperbolic tendencies in his claims against manual aiming.  

 

I'm not worried about the "IF", i'm worried about the red flags i'm seeing. 

 

They shouldn't be worried about that kinda "IF" this early unless somewhere in their mind there is some sort of priority to make the game easy. 

 

Let me ask you this... what if they had said the same thing, but the IF became "tab targeting" instead of aim assist?  Pretty big deal right?

 

Things like aim assist are terrible, they ruin the legitimacy of and respect for a game from the big pvp crowds. 

What big PvP crowds?  The ones who play Tera? Wildstar? FPS games?  Mobas?  Who are you referring to?  Most mmos are still made with Tab target.  

 

The game first and foremost has to be fun for the majority of people....If it is not fun, then the rest does not matter.

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What big PvP crowds?  The ones who play Tera? Wildstar? FPS games?  Mobas?  Who are you referring to?  Most mmos are still made with Tab target.  

 

The game first and foremost has to be fun for the majority of people....If it is not fun, then the rest does not matter.

And that's one of the issues this game will have to overcome... right now a lot of people that are interested in it are people from very old games... they need to understand that while old games have some qualities that were lost in the post wow era, they also have aspects that are antiquated... the average gamer now is much more skilled mechanically than the average 10 years ago... a game made in 2015 needs to at least be in line with today's standards... a pvp game would hopefully be even higher than just the standard...

 

If you want to speak for the majority I expect you to play most of the current popular games thoroughly, then you will know what the majority of gamers are experiencing presently. 

 

For example the majority of gamers do not play with 200ping, and expect games to sacrifice gameplay to compensate for 200ping players... that just isn't happening. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The game first and foremost has to be fun for the majority of people.

 

"the Crowfall team is super conscious of the fact they're not making a game for everybody." -Raph Koster


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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I am glad they are keeping options open.  There is a fine line between ones skill and ones connection.  I do not want a game where melee is easy to play and all they have to do is jump around like some twitch wonderful person and win.  I do not want a game where there is tab target and melee can be kited all day by ranged.  I want something in between not based on an uber connection to win.  A twitch FPS game is what they also said from the beginning that they do not want either.

 

I like the approach they are eluding to, if it makes sense for a specific skill to be soft target based then they will do it.  If a certain skill makes more sense to be free wielding based then that is what they will use for that skill.  If something requires something else they will use that.  This gives us a good mix of different types of targeting systems that best fits the skill used.  

 

Why would they not do it this way?  They want the best possible combat system they can have based on all the factors involved.  Lets be realistic here, tera or wildstar combat, has not lit the world on fire as far as combat is concerned.  The most popular game still is wow, tab target combat.  I like action combat when it makes sense based on the skill being used.  I think the perfect combat system is a combo of all systems based on need of the skill.  Player skill is utilized best in the system that encompasses all the systems and make you think more.

 

One of my pet peeves is pointing to games like Wildstar and TERA and saying that their combat systems weren't good because otherwise they'd have a more healthy population than they do right now.  Then stating wow is popular because of their tab targeting combat.

 

WoW is popular because of content and ease of use.  The same way Angrybirds was/is popular.

 

Wildstar and TERA failed because of poor implementation of everything else and/or their lack of focus on their PvP systems and mechanics.  The combat systems were not to blame.

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