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oh god pls no

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One of my pet peeves is pointing to games like Wildstar and TERA and saying that their combat systems weren't good because otherwise they'd have a more healthy population than they do right now.  Then stating wow is popular because of their tab targeting combat.

 

WoW is popular because of content and ease of use.  The same way Angrybirds was/is popular.

 

Wildstar and TERA failed because of poor implementation of everything else and/or their lack of focus on their PvP systems and mechanics.  The combat systems were not to blame.

 

Tera only survived for two reasons, the combat and elins, everything else really was poorly done. And the combat could have been done better...

 

I was hoping Crowfall was going to take Tera's combat and make it more skillful, the potential is amazing.

Edited by Sciocco

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just because the number is small, doesn't mean we're not a representative sample of the community.

 

I'm sure you had some statistics lectures in school/university. Refresh your knowledge, will ya?

 

Been a while since I took stats, but 0.1% doesn't seem like a very strong representation of the "community." (20/20k)

 

For the most part I don't see many screaming for faceroll combat, but as it is now, we can only honestly speak about what we want/believe and not what "others" want.

 

The "community" is currently very tiny and per usual, probably won't reflect the opinion of all the folks that will be playing. Usually the "community" is actually playing the game, it is the vocal minorities on different extremes complaining and bickering on the forums because THEY want it THEIR way while most are happy with what is available. Not always this way, but seems pretty typical from my experience over the last two decades online.

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If you want to speak for the majority I expect you to play most of the current popular games thoroughly, then you will know what the majority of gamers are experiencing presently. 

 

Sorry if you've already done so, but could you point out some games that you believe represent what Crowfall could take ideas from?

 

"Popular" games like?

 

MOBAs dominate the online scene from the numbers I see, are highly competitive and take a lot of skill to do so. Should CF be point and click? Shadowbane fans rejoice?

 

They've already thrown out it being super twitchy like a FPS/Darkfall and clearly tab isn't likely to show its face. What should we be looking at.

 

I'm a fan of TF2 and while not a huge player, enjoy SMITE as well. They are more of what I'd like to see as far as mechanical skill to some degree. "Skill" helps, but it isn't entirely aim based and a lot more to do with strategy either as an individual or a team. Combat is also relatively slower compared to FPS and top end MOBA.

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Sorry if you've already done so, but could you point out some games that you believe represent what Crowfall could take ideas from?

 

"Popular" games like?

 

MOBAs dominate the online scene from the numbers I see, are highly competitive and take a lot of skill to do so. Should CF be point and click? Shadowbane fans rejoice?

 

They've already thrown out it being super twitchy like a FPS/Darkfall and clearly tab isn't likely to show its face. What should we be looking at.

 

I'm a fan of TF2 and while not a huge player, enjoy SMITE as well. They are more of what I'd like to see as far as mechanical skill to some degree. "Skill" helps, but it isn't entirely aim based and a lot more to do with strategy either as an individual or a team. Combat is also relatively slower compared to FPS and top end MOBA.

This seems rather shortsighted to me... you can take elements from any game, if they work within your vision... but it's also good in general to understand what makes the games popular what works in them and what doesn't... some games are popular because they did something that gamers really liked... then also if those games have very successful esports scenes, perhaps they are doing something right with their pvp and it should be analyzed? 

 

Also super twitchy is subjective... most fps players would not call darkfall twitchy at all.  We've already been given the wildstar to tera range... that's fine, as neither of those games were really all that twitchy right?  So if they are going to slow down the game play, they could at least require you to aim properly. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I'd rather advocate for what gets them the most dedicated pvpers while also making sure player skill definitely matters. 

 

 

What is a "PVPer"? Sorry, but terms like this mean quite a lot to different people.

 

 

Basketball, golf, nascar are completely different types of activities... Comparing them to a bunch of video games that are all using keyboard and mouse isn't very good.  Great pvpers take what they've learned from every genre, and apply that to every new game they play...   Not every bit of wisdom translates, but a great deal more than most people realize does. 

 

That was sort of my point. You use "PVPer" or "skill" as blanket terms. "Skill" in CS is different then WoW, GW2, Shadowbane, EQ, DAoC, LoL, Hearthstone, Candy Crush, Chess, Ping Pong, Pacman, EVE, etc.

 

Maybe you are meaning great gamers or competitors?

 

 

They already said they don't want the game to be too twitchy, which is usually more an indication that they don't want the speed of fighting to be too fast, this is further reinforced by their current 40second toe to toe ttk... that spells slower paced game, should a slower paced game where aiming should be significantly easier than the fast twitch games already, require aim assistance?  Especially if the projectiles probably aren't going to require pinpoint precision like many fps do? 

 

Which is probably why they are just trowing out what they are thinking about and none of this is set in stone yet and all the freak out and the sky is falling is silly.

 

People say they want devs to be transparent and when they are "OMG OMG OMG." I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that for every "good" idea devs come up with, a pile of poor ones end up in the trash bin.

 

Obviously they need to edit themselves a bit releasing updates to prevent such issues. Personally, I like to see what they are thinking about an where things "could" go. Much like the telegraphs, who knows, they could of come up with a great way to implement them that wouldn't destroy what "skilled" gamers want. Interesting to know they are at least open to options and aren't just head down tunnel vision.

 

 

What I am talking about are the standards that mainstream gamers are currently under.... give them something that requires even less skill than the current games, some of which are a decade old... and you have a problem...

 

Time will tell where crowfall lies in the skill department, but until it's all hammered out it's still good for people to give feedback, especially if they see some of the red flags that so many other games have failed because of. 

 

I agree, but no matter what people will be upset as the game won't be magically tailored to each of us individually.

 

I'll at least give them the benefit of the doubt (already gave them my money) that they have something decent planned and if it ends up being garbage, they are willing to accept our feedback. Still have a LONG way to go.

 

As I pointed out in the other post, really don't know what you mean my mainstream gamer. The variety of games, styles, gamers is pretty incredible these days, trying to fit us all into a box with X labels and expectations doesn't seem like it works.

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What is a "PVPer"? Sorry, but terms like this mean quite a lot to different people.

 

 

That was sort of my point. You use "PVPer" or "skill" as blanket terms. "Skill" in CS is different then WoW, GW2, Shadowbane, EQ, DAoC, LoL, Hearthstone, Candy Crush, Chess, Ping Pong, Pacman, EVE, etc.

 

A lot of the skills that the games you listed require are universal, some are not, but great PVPERs (people who play directly against other players) are good at taking their wisdom and applying it to the next game they play. 

 

Maybe you are meaning great gamers or competitors?

 

 

Which is probably why they are just trowing out what they are thinking about and none of this is set in stone yet and all the freak out and the sky is falling is silly.

 

It's not about being set in stone or the sky falling, it's about red flags being raised, and sharing input about such red flags....  When a game tells me it wants player skill to matter, then I see a ton of telegraphs in the KS video, i'll call them out on it.  When they start talking about aim assist before combat is even tested, it gives me the feeling they are leaning towards a more casual friendly system, and again i'll call them out on it.  Now they have every right to simply go, "Well we want it our way too bad so sad", but i'll still share my thoughts on the matter. 

 

People say they want devs to be transparent and when they are "OMG OMG OMG." I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that for every "good" idea devs come up with, a pile of poor ones end up in the trash bin.

 

I'm all for the devs being transparent, and I am all for holding them accountable for whatever decisions they make, and criticizing things I don't agree with, but at the very least when I do such things, it can be from a sincere place trying to make the game better from my own perspective. 

 

Obviously they need to edit themselves a bit releasing updates to prevent such issues. Personally, I like to see what they are thinking about an where things "could" go. Much like the telegraphs, who knows, they could of come up with a great way to implement them that wouldn't destroy what "skilled" gamers want. Interesting to know they are at least open to options and aren't just head down tunnel vision.

 

I don't even think they need to edit themselves, they should be transparent, share things, if people complain so what?  They shared it, people discuss it, and input was given, sounds great to me. 

 

I agree, but no matter what people will be upset as the game won't be magically tailored to each of us individually.

 

This is why I don't usually go off of my own personal preferences, but instead off the preferences of what I believe to be the average.  In the case of crowfall I'm looking at the average pvpers in modern mainstream games that like competitive pvp. 

 

I'll at least give them the benefit of the doubt (already gave them my money) that they have something decent planned and if it ends up being garbage, they are willing to accept our feedback. Still have a LONG way to go.

 

I won't give them the benefit of the doubt, i'll just give them the respect of being sincere in my thoughts.  If they suggest something awesome then great, if they suggest something bad I won't just ignore it and go "it will all be ok don't worry", i'll share my thoughts.  Just like with telegraphs a lot of people shared their thoughts... they probably now realize telegraphs is a very sticky subject. 

 

As I pointed out in the other post, really don't know what you mean my mainstream gamer. The variety of games, styles, gamers is pretty incredible these days, trying to fit us all into a box with X labels and expectations doesn't seem like it works.

 

The mainstream in this case that is relevant to crowfall, would be the gamers playing the most popular and most competitive games, and understanding what makes those games appealing and what doesn't.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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This seems rather shortsighted to me... you can take elements from any game, if they work within your vision... but it's also good in general to understand what makes the games popular what works in them and what doesn't... some games are popular because they did something that gamers really liked... then also if those games have very successful esports scenes, perhaps they are doing something right with their pvp and it should be analyzed? 

 

Also super twitchy is subjective... most fps players would not call darkfall twitchy at all.  We've already been given the wildstar to tera range... that's fine, as neither of those games were really all that twitchy right?  So if they are going to slow down the game play, they could at least require you to aim properly. 

 

Esports games work on a completely different level. 5 vs 5, 10 vs 10 or whatever is nothing like what I'd expect to see in Crowfall. Much like competitive sports. The smaller you make the sides, the more rules and skill ceiling involved.

 

Tossing 100 people into another 100 people and having individual "skill" being a major factor seems hard to pull off. Obviously CF won't only be large scale combat, but it will be there.

 

Clearly Darkfall =/= a FPS but as far as fantasy mmorpg goes, it sways more to that side of things compared to the WoW side of things.

 

Wildstar is a hot mess to me so I'd prefer they avoid it, but Tera's combat is pretty decent, but once you toss in physics, FF, collision, large scale combat, voxels, etc who knows what would happen.

 

As I believe Todd pointed out, they should avoid telling numbers at this point as they are likely to change and people seem to latch on way too much.

 

They barely have 2 archetypes starting to flesh out, pretty sure that from now until release everything presented today has a very good chance of being completely different.

 

Sometimes it's worth not trying to connect the dots when there is a lack of context.

 

"TTK is X so aiming should be Y" is missing quite a lot.

 

It's very easy for us to think we know what is best for the game and even ourselves in regards to it, but we really don't know how it all comes together. Even Pre-Alphas sounds like it will be a very limited experience and lacking a lot of content/context to get an idea of what "real" game play will be like.

 

Obviously we are all going to toss our 30 cents into discussions, but it is all pretty pointless. If I doubted the teams experience and ability, I wouldn't have backed the project or still be here. I'll wait until I get my hands on it to provide informed feedback. In the meantime it is subjective "I want this cause it's the best" "No that sucks, I want this cause it's the best" from what I can see.

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Esports games work on a completely different level. 5 vs 5, 10 vs 10 or whatever is nothing like what I'd expect to see in Crowfall. Much like competitive sports. The smaller you make the sides, the more rules and skill ceiling involved.

 

Ok and then you have to analyze the differences and take what you can and discard what is not applicable. 

 

Tossing 100 people into another 100 people and having individual "skill" being a major factor seems hard to pull off. Obviously CF won't only be large scale combat, but it will be there.

 

Clearly Darkfall =/= a FPS but as far as fantasy mmorpg goes, it sways more to that side of things compared to the WoW side of things.

 

Wildstar is a hot mess to me so I'd prefer they avoid it, but Tera's combat is pretty decent, but once you toss in physics, FF, collision, large scale combat, voxels, etc who knows what would happen.

 

As I believe Todd pointed out, they should avoid telling numbers at this point as they are likely to change and people seem to latch on way too much.

 

They barely have 2 archetypes starting to flesh out, pretty sure that from now until release everything presented today has a very good chance of being completely different.

 

Sometimes it's worth not trying to connect the dots when there is a lack of context.

 

"TTK is X so aiming should be Y" is missing quite a lot.

 

When people give you numbers they are still giving you a window into their line of thinking.  If their TTK is pretty slow right now, and they've also discussed their philosophy on TTK before, and they don't want the game to be too twitchy (TTK and twitch actually have a pretty strong relationship) it can tell you a lot about what kind of pacing they are looking for. 

 

It's very easy for us to think we know what is best for the game and even ourselves in regards to it, but we really don't know how it all comes together. Even Pre-Alphas sounds like it will be a very limited experience and lacking a lot of content/context to get an idea of what "real" game play will be like.

 

Obviously we are all going to toss our 30 cents into discussions, but it is all pretty pointless. If I doubted the teams experience and ability, I wouldn't have backed the project or still be here. I'll wait until I get my hands on it to provide informed feedback. In the meantime it is subjective "I want this cause it's the best" "No that sucks, I want this cause it's the best" from what I can see.

 

I don't agree that it is pointless...  Anything they are considering would be great to hear about, so people can discuss and share their input.  It's also a great learning tool for gamers themselves... because they can discuss the merits of certain design decisions, and then watch the design succeed or fail and look at why. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Nosh1t we're a minority. Tab-targeting is the favourite combat system by far, it allows 80 years old to play the game.

Do you want the new WoW perhaps? Let's try to change any feature according to what the majority wants..

 

 

"What do you mean by a "physics" system? ... objects in our game world move and react according to real-world physics rules. "

 

"We use a real-world gravity system where objects have mass and that mass corresponds to what you would expect from every day experience"

 

"Yes, the system affects everything in the world."

 

"Do projectiles use physics? Yes they do."

This is an interesting reference, but I'm wondering what you actually think it means? Are real physics used in shooting games?, are there AK 47s in Crowfall? Or do you expect arrows to shoot straighter than a real bullet in a physics engine?

 

I'm just recollecting the whole statement from memory, but I'm pretty sure that reference was cited in explanation with projectile obstruction and friendly fire, not Crowfall being a shooter...

 

The actual progression from Wildstar, with fat telegraph actions (there was footage of the Frostweaver shooting arrows), to Tera gameplay is still a ways away from shooter mechanics, the caveat that they'd use a reticle that way players can fire up and down structures was clearly structure related, they said it again when they recently addressed it.

 

There is only one meaningful reason why anyone should have anticipated manual aim, and it's sad that its proponents still fail to emphasiz it.

 

Friendly fire is hard to have when you can't target allies. Mind you, it's not impossible, you can still land AoE and manual shots which except target assist within a mostly target assisted game. You can also lock onto a foe and hit an ally who is in between yourself and the foe.

 

But friendly fire also creates a reason for projectiles to operate within real physics, slow feudal projectiles moving in an arc and over a measured distance allows players to effectively avoid allied targets in an FF situation.

 

With real physics, reticles are actually inadequate, if you were gonna fire an arrow with projectile drop, you'd need an arched target line.

 

I wrote a complex subject on how ground telegraphs were bad and a way to produce assisted aiming in such an action game before they even revealed their video and began kick starter.

 

The Fire Control System from Armored Core produces target predictions imitating real modern weaponry that have to project movement of a target even with bullets and missiles, because the distances and speeds involved in modern warfare can still escape a bullet.

 

In Armored Core, a target window, like a fat reticle, overlays the screen and finds targets within the angle and reach of your weapon. Powerful long ranged weapons have reticles as small as a quarter, and short ranged, weak and automatic weapons may have really large windows that only require you to get them toward the middle of the screen. Furthermore, narrow reticles have longer tracking range and wide ones require close proximity.

 

A system like this doesn't put projectiles directly on target either, it attempts to anticipate where the projectile needs to be fired bases on the speed and direction they are going, if the opponent moves erratically, it will miss, and movement is extremely erratic in AC.

 

This isn't the only solution, the point is, there are assisted aiming systems that can operate with even more complex projectile behaviors and physics than you even see in shooters, and that there are variations of assisted targeting that can make various levels of demand on the player to function.

 

But if you wanna get real with physics, go pick up a bow and fire down range, and tell me how that reticle works with arrows and gravity, as well as how easy it is to hit a moving target with a projectile that's only moving 200 miles per hour. Usually less.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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One of my pet peeves is pointing to games like Wildstar and TERA and saying that their combat systems weren't good because otherwise they'd have a more healthy population than they do right now.  Then stating wow is popular because of their tab targeting combat.

 

WoW is popular because of content and ease of use.  The same way Angrybirds was/is popular.

 

Wildstar and TERA failed because of poor implementation of everything else and/or their lack of focus on their PvP systems and mechanics.  The combat systems were not to blame.

Valor all we have in crowfall is pvp, Tera failed because of combat....along with everything else.  Look I am not saying I want tab target, all I am saying is use whatever system or combination of systems that make the game most fun and enjoyable.  Tera combat sucked unless you played a twitch jump around like some spaz melee char.  If ranged can't hit melee then there is a problem with the combat...If melee can't catch ranged then we have a problem with combat.  Furthermore, you want PvE or was that draegan?

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And that's one of the issues this game will have to overcome... right now a lot of people that are interested in it are people from very old games... they need to understand that while old games have some qualities that were lost in the post wow era, they also have aspects that are antiquated... the average gamer now is much more skilled mechanically than the average 10 years ago... a game made in 2015 needs to at least be in line with today's standards... a pvp game would hopefully be even higher than just the standard...

 

If you want to speak for the majority I expect you to play most of the current popular games thoroughly, then you will know what the majority of gamers are experiencing presently. 

 

For example the majority of gamers do not play with 200ping, and expect games to sacrifice gameplay to compensate for 200ping players... that just isn't happening. 

what does this all mean?  You made this statement "Things like aim assist are terrible, they ruin the legitimacy of and respect for a game from the big pvp crowds."

 

 I was merely trying to figure out who you was speaking for and you went off on some other rant.   Also, tell me 1 successful mmo recently that was all action combat twitch based?  I think the best system is a combo of all combat types based on what the skill being used benefits from the most.  Some action, some soft target, some whatever fits the skill.

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Valor all we have in crowfall is pvp, Tera failed because of combat....along with everything else.  Look I am not saying I want tab target, all I am saying is use whatever system or combination of systems that make the game most fun and enjoyable.  Tera combat sucked unless you played a twitch jump around like some spaz melee char.  If ranged can't hit melee then there is a problem with the combat...If melee can't catch ranged then we have a problem with combat.  Furthermore, you want PvE or was that draegan?

 

In tera it is easy to land most ranged skills, especially archer, actually it was hard to miss. And Tera sorcerer might be the most fun I've ever had playing ranged combat in an MMORPG... Landing back crit fireblasts with consumables onto giga'd groups (or slapping people with void pulses..), custard that was good.


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Mages/Ranged should be glass cannons.

They should destroy you from distance...that's what they are built for.

 

Glass cannons should hit hard, but break easy.

 

As for being hard to play....like coleman said.....learn how to play your class....if your getting destroyed everytime, its not the game, your just not very good, and need to get better.

 

If you cant play ranged....play melee...and get to them fast and waste them!!

 

But we all should give the devs some slack on THEIR game.....let them do what they want.....we will test it...they will fix it.

Edited by Agravenn
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.... sigh

 

we know you have 20434533 ping Nakawe, no reason in trying to convince us how players with bad ping should have it their way....

 

there are thousands of game with tab target, enjoy them.

Haha, my ping will be around 100 to any server in Texas or Virginia......If that is not compatible to play this game, then the game will have severe issues beyond anyone's ping.  I have said numerous times I don't want a tab target game.  I want some hybrid games based on what is best for the current skill being used. I don't want some game that only benefits a small minority of players with sub 50 connection.

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Haha, my ping will be around 100 to any server in Texas or Virginia......If that is not compatible to play this game, then the game will have severe issues beyond anyone's ping.  I have said numerous times I don't want a tab target game.  I want some hybrid games based on what is best for the current skill being used. I don't want some game that only benefits a small minority of players with sub 50 connection.

 

How was Tera with your awful ping? Servers were in Chicago.

 

-I know BRs playing with 200-350ms that played well.

-Artcraft will have to try to make the game as unoptimized as Tera (poor optimization makes latency issues worse)

-Tera had bad servers

Edited by Sciocco

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Haha, my ping will be around 100 to any server in Texas or Virginia......If that is not compatible to play this game, then the game will have severe issues beyond anyone's ping.  I have said numerous times I don't want a tab target game.  I want some hybrid games based on what is best for the current skill being used. I don't want some game that only benefits a small minority of players with sub 50 connection.

I don't know where you are but my ping is around 40 or so to either of those places and I don't think I have exceptional internet service ( rural area )  nor a anything but plain old average comp. And I don't think I am in the minority.  I suppose maybe it is your internet provider :(


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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I don't know where you are but my ping is around 40 or so to either of those places and I don't think I have exceptional internet service ( rural area )  nor a anything but plain old average comp. And I don't think I am in the minority.  I suppose maybe it is your internet provider :(

Nakawe has the worst internet on the continent.


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Haha, my ping will be around 100 to any server in Texas or Virginia......If that is not compatible to play this game, then the game will have severe issues beyond anyone's ping.  I have said numerous times I don't want a tab target game.  I want some hybrid games based on what is best for the current skill being used. I don't want some game that only benefits a small minority of players with sub 50 connection.

Ping will vary, and ping will matter, but good players can overcome most realistic ping differentials. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Tera was designed for Koreans where everyone has fiber and can talk to the server techs by yelling out their window. It was never optimized for people playing on copper on the other side of the continent, so it's definitely not a good measuring stick of how latency would be in a well designed game. Many U.S. studios coordinate with ISPs to optimize their games and they have much better performance than games that weren't.

 

Crowfall should be designed to be playable by people on the same continent as the server. You trade a few customers in out of the way places in exchange for a better game that will be more popular in major markets.

Edited by caffynated

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