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Unnamed

oh god pls no

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Problem is... if it's too hard to be a ranged character, nobody will be! I hope they do their best to make the ranged characters challenging but rewarding.


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This is why I don't usually go off of my own personal preferences, but instead off the preferences of what I believe to be the average.  In the case of crowfall I'm looking at the average pvpers in modern mainstream games that like competitive pvp. 

 

The mainstream in this case that is relevant to crowfall, would be the gamers playing the most popular and most competitive games, and understanding what makes those games appealing and what doesn't.

 

In that case, wouldn't they be looking at MOBAs and WoW? Neither of which I hope they look to for a great deal of inspiration when it comes to combat mechanics themselves. MOBAs have a lot of team strategy that wouldn't be bad to reference. Then there is CS and such, again, doubt we'll see FPS style anything. Not to mention all of these are self-contained, safe, instanced, "balanced", small scale systems that have very little to do with open world setups.

 

If we are looking at numbers, not sure what you are talking about if not those. Any particular games that the average modern mainstream competitive pvper is playing?

 

Last I checked though, CF wasn't being aimed at the masses, which seemed to be who you are talking about.

 

I don't agree that it is pointless...  Anything they are considering would be great to hear about, so people can discuss and share their input.  It's also a great learning tool for gamers themselves... because they can discuss the merits of certain design decisions, and then watch the design succeed or fail and look at why. 

 

While I'm sure some games could of benefited from XYZ being changed beforehand, I don't believe I've ever experienced a game that succeeded or failed based on TTK, aim mechanic, telegraphs, etc. It is usually much more complicated than that.

 

It is what it is though. People will interpret data however they want and discussions will start. From my end, simply believe it is too early to start assuming that ACE might be going down the casual, easy, non-skilled route because they mentioned that they are looking at multiple options to make the game enjoyable as possible.

 

From what they've said of melee, it sounds fairly forgiving and going for the fun factor. Not sure why range would require a ton more "skill" or be highly different than melee. If they were making the next big esport or whatever, I'd see the point, but the game seems more about team work and strategy not who can get head shots quicker. Not that they can't play nice, but it all comes back to all the other pieces of the whole and how it all comes together.

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In that case, wouldn't they be looking at MOBAs and WoW? Neither of which I hope they look to for a great deal of inspiration when it comes to combat mechanics themselves. MOBAs have a lot of team strategy that wouldn't be bad to reference. Then there is CS and such, again, doubt we'll see FPS style anything. Not to mention all of these are self-contained, safe, instanced, "balanced", small scale systems that have very little to do with open world setups.

 

I'll give you some very simplified examples of what they can take or learn from from the games you referenced.  From moba and wow they could learn a lot from the small scale pvp, what kind of synergy worked, spell behavior, meta etc etc... from moba they could learn specifically what kinda trends occurred when balancing small kits certain ways, and how modern gamers react and try to evolve the meta in those kinds of situations.  From a game like CS, being more similar to action combat type aim than the other two, they can learn the nature of aiming,  how people aim, what kinda movement they use to supplement various aiming styles, how people use terrain at the most competitive level of play to their advantage, what makes people good at aiming, what doesn't make them good... what is it about aiming in cs that makes it engaging for beginners but also gives it so much room to grow.  What are the preferences of players new to a game, what about ones that get a little better, what about the absolute best ones?  These are just really simple examples... you can take things from every genre that has pvp, if you know what elements translate. 

 

If we are looking at numbers, not sure what you are talking about if not those. Any particular games that the average modern mainstream competitive pvper is playing?

 

You gotta look at everything, all the popular pvp games, wwhat is it about each one that draws pvpers to them, what common elements from them seem to draw players, what drives players away? 

 

Last I checked though, CF wasn't being aimed at the masses, which seemed to be who you are talking about.

 

Yes it is not marketed as a mass market game, but let's ask ourselves, if it is to be a niche pvp game, should it be aimed at people that want a lower skill ceiling, or people that want a higher skill ceiling?  What do the other PvP games tell us about low skill ceiling games vs high skill ceiling games?  Can you really sell yourself as a great pvp game if your game is easy?  I think it's pretty obvious that they should cater to serious pvpers, and not so much to people who don't put much thought in pvp and kind of just want something to mindlessly kill the time with. 

 

 

While I'm sure some games could of benefited from XYZ being changed beforehand, I don't believe I've ever experienced a game that succeeded or failed based on TTK, aim mechanic, telegraphs, etc. It is usually much more complicated than that.

 

Actually WoW's esport scene fizzled out because of TTK, healing became too strong and blizzard was no longer interested in PvP balance that might impact PvE, so matches would often be complete stalemates, which turned their esports tournaments into failures because no one wants to spectate 2 teams going at it for 45minutes per round with very little opportunity to ever land a kill.  Basically TTK killed their top level of pvp.  Aim mechanics can kill games, bloodline champions is a good example of this... it is a game that didn't try to factor in the average pvper and instead catered to only the most hardcore... this made the game too challenging and the game never built a decent pvp population because of it. 

 

The argument can always be made that there are other factors that lead to the success or failure of a game, but we do know that the feel of combat greatly impacts the overall experience of a player playing a pvp game. 

 

It is what it is though. People will interpret data however they want and discussions will start. From my end, simply believe it is too early to start assuming that ACE might be going down the casual, easy, non-skilled route because they mentioned that they are looking at multiple options to make the game enjoyable as possible.

 

From what they've said of melee, it sounds fairly forgiving and going for the fun factor. Not sure why range would require a ton more "skill" or be highly different than melee. If they were making the next big esport or whatever, I'd see the point, but the game seems more about team work and strategy not who can get head shots quicker. Not that they can't play nice, but it all comes back to all the other pieces of the whole and how it all comes together.

 

Yes the melee seems fairly forgiving, this is a red flag... melee being forgiving whether it's for all melee or only some abilities or whatever, is not by itself going to make or break a game, but too many red flags and you end up with too many issues that make the game not fun. 

 

It's not about esports itself, though there are some aspects of esports that are relevant here... esports was built originally on players desiring simply to be the best at a game, pure competitive spirit... it wasn't about making a salary back then, as there was no money in it initially...

 

You have to look at the mentality of pvpers, and what makes them gravitate towards pvp elements in games... the desire to go up against another player and best them.  How should you best someone?  Ideally by outskilling them right?  So you must give players plenty of ways to outskill people.  If you make the game too easy then you have just that, an easy game, do pvpers like easy pvp?  Not for the most part... even if they enjoy it for a while the novelty wears off and they get bored because they have no real skill ceiling to strive for. 

 

There's a large margin between a game like csgo where you are trying to flick to the dome, and aim assist in an mmorpg.  Plenty of room in there for skillful play without being too extreme... i'd rather they just not set the bar too low... and red flags that indicate they are trying to make the game easier, leave people concerned. 

 


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They are starting with a concern for less proficient players.... basically comparing it to EQN.... they are starting from a lesser point of player skill mattering... that's a red flag to some people...

Depends on what you consider skill. When I think about skill in an mmorpg, I think about character builds, understanding of game mechanics, and decision making in certain scenarios (knowing what to do, what abilities to use and so). While I believe some "twitchy-ness" can definitely add to the game, I hope they don't over do it. The game shouldn't require mlg no scope skills, nor do I believe it will go that way. This might disappoint people, but custard em. Can't please everyone.

 

The trick obviously is that aimed skills will have a margin for error.

Edited by helix

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Depends on what you consider skill. When I think about skill in an mmorpg, I think about character builds, understanding of game mechanics, and decision making in certain scenarios (knowing what to do, what abilities to use and so). While I believe some "twitchy-ness" can definitely add to the game, I hope they don't over do it. The game shouldn't require mlg no scope skills, nor do I believe it will go that way. This might disappoint people, but custard em. Can't please everyone.

 

The trick obviously is that aimed skills will have a margin for error.

 

Spot on mate.


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Depends on what you consider skill. When I think about skill in an mmorpg, I think about character builds, understanding of game mechanics, and decision making in certain scenarios (knowing what to do, what abilities to use and so). While I believe some "twitchy-ness" can definitely add to the game, I hope they don't over do it. The game shouldn't require mlg no scope skills, nor do I believe it will go that way. This might disappoint people, but custard em. Can't please everyone.

 

The trick obviously is that aimed skills will have a margin for error.

When I think of a pvp mmorpg I think it should have a good balance of mechanical and tactical skill.  I don't think it should be mechanically easy so that people with little mechanical skill can thrive, and I don't think it should be tactically shallow so that people that aren't good at thinking can thrive. 

 

I think too often people think that one is more valuable than the other, usually whatever one they are better at, in reality both are valuable and can help create more depth to the other. 

 

I also think the game is better off trying to please people that have good overall skill, and not just one skill or the other. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Jesus, this was never supposed to be a shooter.

 

1. Projectiles have low speed compared to bullets;

2. They have more AOEs;

3. Targets have bigger hitboxes;

4. There won't be a 1st person camera.

 

It doesn't get easier than that, if you remove bullet drop and add aim assistance. For the people asking how free aim could work: it's not a big secret. Singe players did it for ages, nowadays survival games of all kinds do it (H1Z1, DayZ, Rust etc), DF and MO did it years ago. Nobody ever complained about archery or magic in those games.


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Just make the hit box for the Arrow wider/taller until it 'feels good'. Maybe make the missile object a little larger in an exaggerated sense to help along the larger hit box so that it doesn't seem like a arrow that you felt should have missed was an unfair hit. Tweek it until everything feels good gameplay wise.

 

Tweek everything. Not just missile size and hitbox, but also missile speed, fall off range, and fire rate.

 

To add, since there's no first person view, some sort of toggle to allow for "Shoot level and straight" and for "Aim an upward arch for a longer distance target and/or firing over my front line troops to hit the enemy army" Maybe a scroll wheel adjust or something similar.

Edited by HappyWulf

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How was Tera with your awful ping? Servers were in Chicago.

 

-I know BRs playing with 200-350ms that played well.

-Artcraft will have to try to make the game as unoptimized as Tera (poor optimization makes latency issues worse)

-Tera had bad servers

Ping is a two way street, someone else's ping being 300 is as bad as yours being 300.  They can hitch around the screen.  My guild is multi national, we have gamed together for over 12 years.  My desires are not my own but for the  guild....

 

My ping was ok to tera...Tera melee combat felt like facerolling for me.  I thought it required almost zero skill.  I want a game that requires skill and STRATEGY beyond just aiming.  I think if the goal is  just to have action combat, they will sell this combat system short.  I want a combo of different targeting systems based on what is best for the skill being used.  This will require some Strategy beyond face rolling and or having connection play a major role in combat.

Edited by Nakawe

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Problem is... if it's too hard to be a ranged character, nobody will be! I hope they do their best to make the ranged characters challenging but rewarding.

 

This is a very real thing. If the gap between playing melee and range is too much (i.e. range is too difficult for the majority of people to play efficiently), who in their right mind is going to to play ranged? 

 

In age of conan, the majority of melee characters used their short combos (2-3 buttons), over the longer and drastically harder combos to land. Eventually they reduced the longer combos inputs, because they realized it was simply not practical.

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When I think of a pvp mmorpg I think it should have a good balance of mechanical and tactical skill.  I don't think it should be mechanically easy so that people with little mechanical skill can thrive, and I don't think it should be tactically shallow so that people that aren't good at thinking can thrive. 

 

I think too often people think that one is more valuable than the other, usually whatever one they are better at, in reality both are valuable and can help create more depth to the other. 

 

I also think the game is better off trying to please people that have good overall skill, and not just one skill or the other. 

 

All mmorpgs utilize mechanical skills. You don't think WoW requires knowledge of game mechanics? That game is bloated as custard, and requires a ton of game mechanic knowledge. There is more to the mechanical skill of games than simply aiming. (I'm repeating myself here but) What abilities to use, when to dodge, what direction to dodge, when to use your iframe abilities, positioning, when to engage, when to disengage, HOW to engage/disengage. You can pretty much lump strategy and mechanics together as far as I'm concerned.

 

MMORPGs are slower and more thoughtful tho, they aren't blazing fast, 120fps fragfests where you need pin point accuracy and split second decision making (although I've played with some shot callers that are very good, never shut up, and can make good decisions on the fly).

 

Also consider the size of battles. We're not talking about honor dueling here, where each army sends 1 guy in to the center and they fight it out one at a time. There will be dozens if not hundreds of people on screen, it's going to be a real clustercustard. The devs also have to factor this in for the pacing of combat, other wise scrimmages will be over in seconds and battles will become extremely mundane and repetitive (like eventually GW2).

 

Will aiming matter? Sure. I hope it's slightly more challenging than wildstar when it actually comes to aiming your abilities. I'm not, however, expecting DFO 2.0 or counter strike, or any of that other poorly made socks. There will definitely be back-end systems to "soften" the difficulty of aiming your abilities.

Edited by helix

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All mmorpgs utilize mechanical skills. You don't think WoW requires knowledge of game mechanics? That game is bloated as custard, and requires a ton of game mechanic knowledge. There is more to the mechanical skill of games than simply aiming. (I'm repeating myself here but) What abilities to use, when to dodge, what direction to dodge, when to use your iframe abilities, positioning, when to engage, when to disengage, HOW to engage/disengage. You can pretty much lump strategy and mechanics together as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

 

I think you are misunderstanding what he means by mechanical skill. He isn't talking about game mechanics. Mechanical skill is how well the player can execute the task he is trying to execute, not the knowledge of that task's existance. For example knowing when to use your iframe abilities would be a tactical skill, having the reflexes to press that key before the fireball hits you in the face is mechanical. Or positioning, knowing that you need to kite the melee guy and turn to do damage periodically is tactical skill. Being able to face away to run and then face at the enemy and successfully land an aimed attack is a player's mechanical skills. Knowing what direction to dodge is a tactical skill, not fat fingering your keyboard and dodging the wrong direction on accident is a mechanical task.

 

Basically a players mechanical skill is his ability to execute his tactical knowledge successfully.

Edited by Unnamed

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I hope they are able to implement a system that isn't tab-targeting or close to it; however, I don't want range classes and balance to suffer.  When you put a lot of players in one area free aim may become unusable. 

 

Ultimately, as they stated to be their main goal, it should be fun.  I hope they find some innovation during their search for that... 

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hopefully they just strike a solid balance.

 

insta hit gratification is annoying.

manic frenzied spinning jumping is annoying.

 

like everything else, there should be costs and tradeoffs for 'advantage'.

 

you want the fastest possible projectile speed? channel it longer for quick impact and greater damage (it is physics after all...Force = Mass x Acceleration)

 

you want to move like a pinball on crack? jumping/sidestepping/strafing/sprinting should all represent a meaningful stamina drain, and impact (negatively) any ability damage.

 

the devil, is, of course in the details...but it seems that such a system would be pretty reasonable, and infinitely tweakable.

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I think you are misunderstanding what he means by mechanical skill. He isn't talking about game mechanics. Mechanical skill is how well the player can execute the task he is trying to execute, not the knowledge of that task's existance. For example knowing when to use your iframe abilities would be a tactical skill, having the reflexes to press that key before the fireball hits you in the face is mechanical. Or positioning, knowing that you need to kite the melee guy and turn to do damage periodically is tactical skill. Being able to face away to run and then face at the enemy and successfully land an aimed attack is a player's mechanical skills. Knowing what direction to dodge is a tactical skill, not fat fingering your keyboard and dodging the wrong direction on accident is a mechanical task.

 

Basically a players mechanical skill is his ability to execute his tactical knowledge successfully.

I think there is a shortcoming in language when describing mechanical skill, because the mechanisms which determine skills directly impact strategy, or inversely, while other mechanisms are responsible for strategy, along with everything skill oriented.

 

Manual operation, input talent, aim, navigation, spacial interaction, observation and reaction, there's a lot going on with player skill, but mechanics encompass everything in a game, even the strategy, you could literally have great mechanical skill with the strategic functions of the system...

 

Even the most mundane MMOs are at least real time in most cases, so there is an element of timing and sequencing in comparison to turn based combat.


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I'll give you some very simplified examples of what they can take or learn from from the games you referenced.  From moba and wow they could learn a lot from the small scale pvp, what kind of synergy worked, spell behavior, meta etc etc... from moba they could learn specifically what kinda trends occurred when balancing small kits certain ways, and how modern gamers react and try to evolve the meta in those kinds of situations.  From a game like CS, being more similar to action combat type aim than the other two, they can learn the nature of aiming,  how people aim, what kinda movement they use to supplement various aiming styles, how people use terrain at the most competitive level of play to their advantage, what makes people good at aiming, what doesn't make them good... what is it about aiming in cs that makes it engaging for beginners but also gives it so much room to grow.  What are the preferences of players new to a game, what about ones that get a little better, what about the absolute best ones?  These are just really simple examples... you can take things from every genre that has pvp, if you know what elements translate. 

 

None of this seems overly complicated or too far from common sense that any experienced devs should have at this point, especially this team.

 

Sure they can look to other systems, but there isn't anything out that seems too close to what they've presented CF to be. Game A might have X and Crowfall might have X, but once you factor in all the other variables, what did or didn't work in Game A become less meaningful.

 

You gotta look at everything, all the popular pvp games, wwhat is it about each one that draws pvpers to them, what common elements from them seem to draw players, what drives players away? 

 

Which is why I asked what games you had in mind when it comes to what you'd like to see in Crowfall either personally or for "average PVPers" to make the game more entertaining.

 

Saying "everything" isn't painting any pictures.

 

Again why I pointed out WoW and MOBAs. They are the most popular games, yet neither requires a ton of "skill" when it comes to aiming beyond point and click or tab. Both require hand/eye dexterity and coordination, but both are a far cry away from FPS or other more free form aiming designs. WoW also has a million skills and MOBAs have a few. None of this sounds like CF to me.

 

Could easily say that not having a high "skill" ceiling for aiming is what makes both hugely popular and while FPS is popular as well, they are a ways back, and way at the end of the line are games like Tera, Wildstar, Darkfall, etc that use various form of targeting but have the added elements of fantasy mmorpgs.

 

Precision aiming and what not isn't super hard for a new player in CS because aiming is a big chunk of it. Aim at the enemy and click. Some can do it faster, while moving, or whatever else and others can, but the basic idea is pretty straight forward.

 

Toss in a skill bar, classes, buffs/debuffs, gear, random AI danger and it becomes more challenging in different ways. It is not longer straight forward.

 

Yes it is not marketed as a mass market game, but let's ask ourselves, if it is to be a niche pvp game, should it be aimed at people that want a lower skill ceiling, or people that want a higher skill ceiling?  What do the other PvP games tell us about low skill ceiling games vs high skill ceiling games?  Can you really sell yourself as a great pvp game if your game is easy?  I think it's pretty obvious that they should cater to serious pvpers, and not so much to people who don't put much thought in pvp and kind of just want something to mindlessly kill the time with. 

 

Again, "skill" is a very vague term. 

 

This thread and I'm assuming your views are implying that having any sort of "assist" to aiming equates to the game being easier or requiring less skill. And that "serious gamers" all want or are good with mechanical aiming. Once again....WoW, MOBA, RTS, CCG, etc. Lots of "skilled" players out there...

 

In comparison to what is what I have to ask.

 

It's very easy to say you want more "skill" but pretty sure the devs can't magically install "Skill Pack 2.5" to the game and be done with it.

 

I want a very challenging experience, from the mindless zombies, solo assassins popping out in the dark and trying to stab me in the back to guilds cooking up plots over months to defeat enemies.

 

How much I want aiming to factor in is yet to be known in my mind as I need more context. If the skills themselves, FF, voxels, physics, team synergy, etc are all increasing the "skill" required to be effective, tossing in a more mechanically challenging aim system may cause more harm than good, even if it ups the potential.

 

Looking around, I don't see many praying for a faceroll experience, but I also don't see many saying what they actually want exactly or in comparison to other systems that might be possible options for Crowfall.

 

Going "don't make it easy" or "soft locks will destroy any chance of me being the best PvPer ever!" don't hold much substance for me at this point.

 

Cherry picking one type of skill and putting it at the top of the pile is fairly narrow sighted so early.

 

Actually WoW's esport scene fizzled out because of TTK, healing became too strong and blizzard was no longer interested in PvP balance that might impact PvE, so matches would often be complete stalemates, which turned their esports tournaments into failures because no one wants to spectate 2 teams going at it for 45minutes per round with very little opportunity to ever land a kill.  Basically TTK killed their top level of pvp.  Aim mechanics can kill games, bloodline champions is a good example of this... it is a game that didn't try to factor in the average pvper and instead catered to only the most hardcore... this made the game too challenging and the game never built a decent pvp population because of it. 

 

The argument can always be made that there are other factors that lead to the success or failure of a game, but we do know that the feel of combat greatly impacts the overall experience of a player playing a pvp game.

 

Never played bloodline and quit WoW before it's "esport" side grew so can't comment too much myself.

 

While I do not doubt WoW's TTK and what not impacting it's more competitive side, it simply wasn't a game created with such things in mind (at least what was released initially). Shoehorning in features that don't play nice with a huge part of the game (PVE) is bound to result in problems. Much like GW2 which tried to do the opposite and go more esport out the gate which made PVE terrible and now they appear to be attempting to remedy it.

 

 

Yes the melee seems fairly forgiving, this is a red flag... melee being forgiving whether it's for all melee or only some abilities or whatever, is not by itself going to make or break a game, but too many red flags and you end up with too many issues that make the game not fun. 

 

It's not about esports itself, though there are some aspects of esports that are relevant here... esports was built originally on players desiring simply to be the best at a game, pure competitive spirit... it wasn't about making a salary back then, as there was no money in it initially...

 

You have to look at the mentality of pvpers, and what makes them gravitate towards pvp elements in games... the desire to go up against another player and best them.  How should you best someone?  Ideally by outskilling them right?  So you must give players plenty of ways to outskill people.  If you make the game too easy then you have just that, an easy game, do pvpers like easy pvp?  Not for the most part... even if they enjoy it for a while the novelty wears off and they get bored because they have no real skill ceiling to strive for. 

 

There's a large margin between a game like csgo where you are trying to flick to the dome, and aim assist in an mmorpg.  Plenty of room in there for skillful play without being too extreme... i'd rather they just not set the bar too low... and red flags that indicate they are trying to make the game easier, leave people concerned. 

 

I don't see melee being forgiving to be a red flag, but simply the game they are designing. Don't believe they've ever marketed CF as being a highly competitive mechanical "skill" game. Seems they want players to have ways to improve and what not, but a good deal of their vision appears to be more about the politics, strategy, and overall how we play the game as a whole, not the aim system. Hence the Yomi post. Considering they went after SB/Wiz101 fans to get this game going, not surprising that combat might not require ninja fingers, but more ninja mind.

 

Agree that many want to be the best and prove something. But mechanical skill is not greater than everything else. Not sure where folks got it in their mind that CF would even be that type of game exactly.

 

Basically, my overall question is what are your actual suggestions (unless I missed them)?

 

I've seen several say X is bad or concerning, but yet to see much of any giving real input as to what would fill the void of "easier" systems. Saying anything is "feedback" but if I was a dev, shooting down what I had thought up and providing only "that sucks" or "too easy" "make it better" really doesn't help.

 

There is a very large margin between CS and WoW, but where on the line should CF land and what does that look like?

 

I have limited experience with Tera, but that seems to be the biggest combat reference they've made and it not surprisingly has multiple aiming mechanics depending on the type of ability. As there isn't one magical perfect way to do it when that are X types of characters with Y number of abilities that work in Z number of ways.

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Given we'll have physics based projectiles, it's quite unlikely I feel that we'd have hitscan ranged abilities except in very special circumstances.  Personally, I hope they enhance Tera's take on it all, and make it work such that all ranged skills required travel time and collision.  The obvious fix depending on the situation would be a bigger or smaller hitbox of the projectile itself.  Regardless of what happens, though, it worked great in Tera for archer hitscan skills (your reticule, if aimed right, became "fat" for a greater radius of hitbox) and worked great for sorcerer's few freeform projectiles.  What few other skills that other classes have which were hitscan or freeform projectile all worked just fine how they were.  Lancer leash, for example, basically the Knight's chain pull, had no fat reticule and required much more precise aiming or you'd miss.

 

It sounds like they're well on their way to what the game should be like.  I'm fully expecting we'll see essentially nothing in the way of (at least offensively) auto-lock (like heals and some other abilities in Tera) or soft-target (like ESO) or aim-assist ("fat" reticule).

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None of this seems overly complicated or too far from common sense that any experienced devs should have at this point, especially this team.

 

It seems common sense, but if it were really so common people would not make games that failed so badly, so frequently. 

 

Sure they can look to other systems, but there isn't anything out that seems too close to what they've presented CF to be. Game A might have X and Crowfall might have X, but once you factor in all the other variables, what did or didn't work in Game A become less meaningful.

 

 

Which is why I asked what games you had in mind when it comes to what you'd like to see in Crowfall either personally or for "average PVPers" to make the game more entertaining.

 

I'd like them to strive for a game that has a high tactical and mechanical skill ceiling and the proper skill curve to match it...  That means they can learn alot from moba type kits and diversity... mechanically they can look to the asian action combat mmos and see what they are doing with the pacing of their combat, the skill demand they are putting on their players, etc.... games like dragon nest, blade and soul, black desert, vindictus, some of the ones they've already looked at like tera, wildstar, and darkfall and such.  There is no staple action combat mmorpg yet... not because action combat isn't  viable but because the ones that have attempted it for the most part weren't bold enough.  Like a lot of asian mmorpgs still focused too much on the grinding mentality, games like dragon nest weren't full fledged mmos, etc.  They can look at these games to see what kinda mechanical level players are playing at.. they can look at the really popular games in the west, mobas, wow, gw2, etc and while the mmorpgs in the west aren't really true action combat for the most part, they can still get a feel for the pacing at which players are expected to play.

 

Saying "everything" isn't painting any pictures.

 

Again why I pointed out WoW and MOBAs. They are the most popular games, yet neither requires a ton of "skill" when it comes to aiming beyond point and click or tab. Both require hand/eye dexterity and coordination, but both are a far cry away from FPS or other more free form aiming designs. WoW also has a million skills and MOBAs have a few. None of this sounds like CF to me.

 

WoW requires some mechanical skill but yes aim isn't a big one, basically for a lot of the classes the only thing you have to aim is keeping your target somewhere in front of you, not really much different than an action combat game that has very generous cone attacks.  MOBAs are a different story... they actually require tons of skill, they basically use the same mechanics as RTS games and the aim comes in precision clicking, you are aiming your cursor, instead of moving a crosshair in a way to put an object in the middle of it, but it's still aim.

 

As far as kit size CF is somewhere inbetween a WoW and a typical moba... and it can learn from both because neither is too far from it in that department since it is in the middle. 

 

Could easily say that not having a high "skill" ceiling for aiming is what makes both hugely popular and while FPS is popular as well, they are a ways back, and way at the end of the line are games like Tera, Wildstar, Darkfall, etc that use various form of targeting but have the added elements of fantasy mmorpgs.

 

But that's the thing, no one is asking for extremely fast FPS type aim, but we'd like it at least to be challenging, give us an evolution from the tab target games, not a sidestep or a backwards step. 

 

Precision aiming and what not isn't super hard for a new player in CS because aiming is a big chunk of it. Aim at the enemy and click. Some can do it faster, while moving, or whatever else and others can, but the basic idea is pretty straight forward.

 

Specifically in CS's case you are not always aiming with your crosshair.  Aiming by itself isn't necessarily complex in theory, if you are playing vs other new players... but then you start dealing with players who know how to bunny hop, or crouch up and down while fighting and strafing and tapping, or players that will try to shoot you through corners without seeing you etc... there are a lot of variables that start adding up and acting a lot of tactical elements. 

 

Toss in a skill bar, classes, buffs/debuffs, gear, random AI danger and it becomes more challenging in different ways. It is not longer straight forward.

 

It's not generally more challenging though... tactical depth from games basically translates across genres... sure you might be calling it a fireball in an mmorpg and it may behave a certain way, but it all just boils down quite simply to "which choice helps me win and which choice causes me to lose".  The games that require the most mechanics actually explore much more advanced tactics than pretty much any mmorpg... this is why mmorpgs generally aren't taken seriously as esports... Because sure people can think about when they need to land that fireball, but very rarely is it difficult to actually execute anything in mmorpgs... so it's pretty much primarily on the bookkeeping aspect of it all, because the mechanical skill ceiling is so low...

 

 

Again, "skill" is a very vague term. 

 

This thread and I'm assuming your views are implying that having any sort of "assist" to aiming equates to the game being easier or requiring less skill. And that "serious gamers" all want or are good with mechanical aiming. Once again....WoW, MOBA, RTS, CCG, etc. Lots of "skilled" players out there...

 

My view is that a game should not have too many red flags if it wants player skill to matter.  The aim assist mechanically has its pros and cons... the bigger concern is the why behind it.  When I see a game looking at slow ttks, telegraphs, aim assist, etc... it's telling me they don't want player skill to matter relative to the most competitive pvp games out there, because they are looking at things that drastically lower any mechanical skill requirement.

 

In comparison to what is what I have to ask.

 

It's very easy to say you want more "skill" but pretty sure the devs can't magically install "Skill Pack 2.5" to the game and be done with it.

 

There are many pretty obvious ways skill can matter... for example by having a high skill ceiling and a skill curve that rewards those that are better than others properly.  When you cast a spell it's pretty important that it land right?  So making it take aim to land spells is a simple way of adding more skill requirement. 

 

I want a very challenging experience, from the mindless zombies, solo assassins popping out in the dark and trying to stab me in the back to guilds cooking up plots over months to defeat enemies.

 

How much I want aiming to factor in is yet to be known in my mind as I need more context. If the skills themselves, FF, voxels, physics, team synergy, etc are all increasing the "skill" required to be effective, tossing in a more mechanically challenging aim system may cause more harm than good, even if it ups the potential.

 

But why is that how it's got to be?  Why is it that mechanical skill should be avoided?  It goes hand in hand with tactical skill, and you give your game a much higher skill ceiling when you are embracing both. 

 

Looking around, I don't see many praying for a faceroll experience, but I also don't see many saying what they actually want exactly or in comparison to other systems that might be possible options for Crowfall.

 

Going "don't make it easy" or "soft locks will destroy any chance of me being the best PvPer ever!" don't hold much substance for me at this point.

 

I think people have shared a lot of what they want.  Here i'll say it right now... I want a game that makes you aim your ability, I want the people with better aim to be rewarded more because they are landing their abilities more frequently, and I want players that are not as good to have to take some time to learn and improve their aim and to not be gifted with an easy system. 

 

Cherry picking one type of skill and putting it at the top of the pile is fairly narrow sighted so early.

 

It's not cherry picking ,it's looking at which one they seem to be neglecting.  There's plenty of things they've shared about how much they love tactics... there's a few things they've shared that indicate they don't really truly value mechanical skill. 

 

 

Never played bloodline and quit WoW before it's "esport" side grew so can't comment too much myself.

 

While I do not doubt WoW's TTK and what not impacting it's more competitive side, it simply wasn't a game created with such things in mind (at least what was released initially). Shoehorning in features that don't play nice with a huge part of the game (PVE) is bound to result in problems. Much like GW2 which tried to do the opposite and go more esport out the gate which made PVE terrible and now they appear to be attempting to remedy it.

 

Well in WoW's case TTK just flat out killed the esports... simply put you can't draw in more spectators with 45mins of next to zero chance of killing each other per match... and that's how it eventually got and then died as an esport... it's a bit better now, but the esport side is pretty much already dead... it won't really pick back up. 

 

 

I don't see melee being forgiving to be a red flag, but simply the game they are designing. Don't believe they've ever marketed CF as being a highly competitive mechanical "skill" game. Seems they want players to have ways to improve and what not, but a good deal of their vision appears to be more about the politics, strategy, and overall how we play the game as a whole, not the aim system. Hence the Yomi post. Considering they went after SB/Wiz101 fans to get this game going, not surprising that combat might not require ninja fingers, but more ninja mind.

 

To me melee being forgiving is just that, forgiving, it's easy, large margin for error... I'm not asking for the high competitive mechanics, what I'm hoping for is something that is at least in line with the pace and skill current mainstream pvpers are experiencing... right now based on some of their ideas, it may not even be at that point, let alone an evolution to current gaming where player skill matters and makes the game so competitive and gritty, it's going to be none of that if it is easy. 

 

But neither of those games had a ninja mind either, this is why I advocate for people experiencing everything that is out there... if you did you would see how lacking even in the tactical department those games really were. 

 

Agree that many want to be the best and prove something. But mechanical skill is not greater than everything else. Not sure where folks got it in their mind that CF would even be that type of game exactly.

 

higher mechanical skill ceiling gives way to higher tactical skill ceiling because you are dealing with a much more complete opponent and even an extra serving of tactics related to the mechanics of executing things. 

 

Basically, my overall question is what are your actual suggestions (unless I missed them)?

 

Do not have aim assist, do not have telegraphs, allow for a wide array of ttks... some matchups should be over quite fast, some should take forever, and everything inbetween. 

 

I've seen several say X is bad or concerning, but yet to see much of any giving real input as to what would fill the void of "easier" systems. Saying anything is "feedback" but if I was a dev, shooting down what I had thought up and providing only "that sucks" or "too easy" "make it better" really doesn't help.

 

Sometimes that's all that needs to be said though... if someone comes up with a system that you feel is dumbing down a game or part of a game, why would you suggest an alternate way of dumbing it down, maybe you just don't want to dumb it down at all.  MMORPGs especially already have enough of that. 

 

There is a very large margin between CS and WoW, but where on the line should CF land and what does that look like?

 

They've said somewhere between wildstar and tera... perhaps that looks like black desert online... but if they add too many "make it easier" elements it won't really matter.  Quake wouldn't be quake if you had 100% aimlock. 

 

I have limited experience with Tera, but that seems to be the biggest combat reference they've made and it not surprisingly has multiple aiming mechanics depending on the type of ability. As there isn't one magical perfect way to do it when that are X types of characters with Y number of abilities that work in Z number of ways.

 

Tera is considered very slow by a lot of people that try it out... which is why it gives some hope that they were talking about wildstar as well which was a little faster... fast enough?  Who knows...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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@OP's notion

 

In most games arrows are some of the most annoying projectiles to hit. I swear.

 

 

I have a lot of experience with a variety of games, probably nearing a thousand or maybe surpassed a thousand unique games played during my life time. Across most of the major platforms (although not the modern platforms ps4/xboxone/nintendopasttheN64)

 

I play fpses (my home genre) and have since I was  5... on the PC. I'm a serious fps player, and I'm telling you. Arrows 80% of the time are freaking garbage to aim and hit with lag, and WITHOUT lag they're FREAKING GOD AWFUL ANNOYING AND I WANT TO SHOOT THAT ARROW IN THE FACE WITH A GUN RAAAAAAH.

 

No joke. custard arrows. I don't want to have to deal with hyper twitch gameplay in a freaking MMO setting, and arrow aiming 1:1 hit box projectile arch garbage is going to turn into a probability game, and a game of who's got the better connection to the server, and or who's got a better lag-exploit setup.

 

Seriously. Screw arrows. H1Z1 if you want to have arrow frustration, just understand...the frustration is real.

 

Not all projectiles, not all variable arch-delayed-time-to-hit projectiles are toxic, but arrows...I swear to god the inconsistency across the genre of games and with how arrows play...I mean ffs you'd think someone would've stuck with what works, but NOPE.

 

There's no consistency, and everyone wants to get their fingers in and muck about, and its frustrating. I get that you can play with some things, and tweak stuff, and you work in a space thats 100% yours to muck about in...but...the sadism of having a fiddly annoying unrewarding mysterious to optimise type of weapon to utilize and do well with... Its just.. .there are sooo many facets of projectiles.

 

TF2, I took to the nade launcher like a duck to water, the rocket launcher was my dearest friend, I get projectiles, but as soon as they started heading towards arrow-like properties, my brain...melted.

 

Flare gun? More like fail gun. At one point after months I could reliably flare gun people, but you know what? Wasn't worth. The flare gun was a side-arm. An incidental source of damage, to get good with it, was for like maybe 15% better total game play. The huntsman? Spray and Pray more like. Freaking seriously 66% of that was skill and the last third of the skill ceiling was luck based bull.

 

Theres a reason they put the huntsman as a dinky cute thing to sock around with. They knew it was just a cutesy thing for people to troll around with. Esports guys probably use the huntsman like a hardcore weapon, but the depth to the charge-up and the variable with how it archs, and plays, the rudimentary bits I bet are they've internalized a set of timers, "ok I've got a .25sec a .5, and a 1sec to learn, and then just tweaking between those phases..." But seriously. Thats pro-gaming. Learning every single variation of the forumla for that time-hold-duration is so freaking annoying, when all it amounts to is having a different gun...that might work slightly better in a slighty different situation.

 

Now add lag, and variable lag, and the guess work, and how that renders all that work worthless.

 

And I'm serious. Guess work. You have to gauge play patterns and the dodge-style of players, and their movements, and the spacial reasoning they're going for, and you have to gauge SERIOUSLY gauge where they're likely to go and play the odds for what they're doing, and hey maybe you get them down to a 75% correct guess, maybe there are other subtle tells or you've read a player over a duration...but

 

Thats just the initiation of the fight, now you have them in your face, and you're stuck with them ducking and weaving and a period of maybe 2 sec before you're in a fail state, and reading their dodges, and then playing into the next step of a team oriented play, or some other meta level play that takes into account the rest of the battle....

 

Teach me senpai.

 

If arrows are 10x more difficult to use, and the other ability equals them in power, they're going to be a multiple times more frustrating to lose to cheese, and then the amount of workload you're setting yourself to learn for how to counter just cheese. After you figure out how to stop cutesy poorly made socks you're still going to be struggling against the real struggle the real challenge and skill-ceiling tiering problems.

 

 

Go play chivalry, as an archer and tell me you feel important, and that every hit feels like it wasn't a game of increasing probablity. If you get to a point where 90% of the time you hit a person, tell me, how long it took you to do that, and what it amounts to your win rating. What's your gimmic for learning that system, and is it fun?

 

Was it map based? Did you use a landmark to gauge distance? Did you figure out a timer system for holding the bow, and learning the distances? What was your gimmic?

 

What is the curriculum?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll probably go back and tone this down, but seriously...I mean seriously. If we're talking about selling emotional validity, I'm trying to sell how annoying arrows are. Don't push off how annoying they are as scrub garbage. They're a highly complex diffcult to execute thing, and if people are bunny hoping to screw with people shooting them, or ninjitus weaving ok...fine, but now thats your game, and arrow guys are going to be one of your most diffcult to balance things, because of the skill ceiling, and variance. Friendly fire, and punishing it consistently? good luck.

 

Thats not even your only problem. Soon you'll reach the Starcraft 2 problem. Balancing for high tier play, and now players are learning a thing so incredibly difficult balanced for such a rediculous tier of play, that's degenerated into demi-god battles in the stars vrs the plebs in bronze league being denegrated for their lowly humanity and their aspirations for the stars.

 

 

My references are pretty specific, so if you want to gauge me, play those games specifically mentioned and adjust your reasoning to be more specific. If you can solve the problems you think I'm having with those games design wise, then w/e you're the designer.

 

 

I mean I understand. Niche market/product, so play to your strengths. Design a game that people want to play and if only 20% like it but they have the best experience of their lives, if they can float your game thats your deal. Do you boo. I'll swing a sword, and play the non ranged guys if I have to, but I'll fiddle with that archer at some point, and have that single tear down my cheek as I know what can never be....

 

 

In short TL:DR arrows...urgh.

 

 

(Not asking for tab targeting, but don't knock hitscan with the illusion of a projectile...or making something 'less' realilistic...right. Also don't knock gamification machine-gunning arrows like an elf or other gun-feel-types shooting systems...although I find the cs head1shot too finese for casual fun)

Edited by Zomnivore

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