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Santovenia

Please don't build any stuns (or equivalent) into the game.

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But the whole point was that there shouldn't be long duration cc especially hard cc.

I get that. You don't want hard CC. I'm saying and explaining why there should be CC in measured amounts. I understand your point, and am arguing a counterpoint. You made an argument about the duration of the fight being longer because of CC, I'm saying why that isn't so. Thus how arguments or discussions usually work.

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I get that. You don't want hard CC. I'm saying and explaining why there should be CC in measured amounts. I understand your point, and am arguing a counterpoint. You made an argument about the duration of the fight being longer because of CC, I'm saying why that isn't so. Thus how arguments or discussions usually work.

No I made a point that CC definitely impacts ttk...  It CAN make fights longer, and it can make them shorter, and if you look at the nature of crowfall, it does not seem like a very instagibby game if toe to toe ttk is 40 second, and cc usually makes games that are slow even slower. 

 

When ttk is already long, it's harder to land a kill than it is not to, and that means that even if you are trying to use cc to set up windows for kills, the enemy is setting up cc to counter them, and because the game is already a long ttk, cc vs cc gives a more defensive pace the advantage and generally drags it out to be even more slow.  Just like in high burst instagibby type games, cc shortens fights, in slower games it lengthens them. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

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No I made a point that CC definitely impacts ttk...  It CAN make fights longer, and it can make them shorter, and if you look at the nature of crowfall, it does not seem like a very instagibby game if toe to toe ttk is 40 second, and cc usually makes games that are slow even slower. 

 

When ttk is already long, it's harder to land a kill than it is not to, and that means that even if you are trying to use cc to set up windows for kills, the enemy is setting up cc to counter them, and because the game is already a long ttk, cc vs cc gives a more defensive pace the advantage and generally drags it out to be even more slow.  Just like in high burst instagibby type games, cc shortens fights, in slower games it lengthens them. 

One could say that defense in general slows combat. If I put up a shield and am reducing damage by half, you could essentially say the result is equal to stunning you for half the time (not exactly, but hopefully you have the imagination to understand what I'm saying). A stun is the same as a defensive skill, and I think it is being treated as such. notice that the Knight has no stun, but instead has a good bit of damage mitigation technique. The Confessor has a stun for defense and utility instead of damage reduction.

 

What I'm saying with this is that stun might make fights slower as you've said, but so does any sort of defense in the game.

 

On the topic of fight duration, the ttk being long is probably a result of the campaigns being meant to be very long wars, so you need some level of toughness and the goal will not always be to kill the target in front of you, but to still be in a good condition for future fights. The game seems to lean towards large-scale battles heavily with few roles in roaming. So I don't feel as much malice towards long fights and tougher kills.

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I just don't want to be standing helplessly while I get killed. I would much rather be able to react and have some measure of control. If that means cc breakers, so be it. Personally I would prefer that it mean no abilities that completely take control away from me, or if there are such abilities make them take my control for the shortest span of time possible, and definitely make it so that I can't be chained stun in the same spot by three people forever. If you stun me for 1 second, then your buddy who's standing next to you can NOT stun me for another 120 seconds or so.

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I just don't want to be standing helplessly while I get killed. I would much rather be able to react and have some measure of control. If that means cc breakers, so be it. Personally I would prefer that it mean no abilities that completely take control away from me, or if there are such abilities make them take my control for the shortest span of time possible, and definitely make it so that I can't be chained stun in the same spot by three people forever. If you stun me for 1 second, then your buddy who's standing next to you can NOT stun me for another 120 seconds or so.

 

120 seconds is a lot... most small fights (1-4 people) probably won't even last that long, so what you're saying is you only have one chance during the fight to "stun", afterwards it becomes a bashing-fight... to see who can kill the other with the most damage... Ah, don't you see a problem with that? 

Edited by zero2none

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Why don't we just look at more damaging forms of soft CC? Longer/compounding snares, roots, blinds, silences, and binds (an ability that wraps a players arms to the torso that doesn't allow them to use physical abilities but they can still move). All with counters during group play that would allow those who can debuff well an advantage over a team who cannot cleanse those issues.

 

Hard CC has always been interesting with appropriate counters, and short stuns are pretty cool and tactical and should be the only CC with any sort of immunity. I also wouldn't mind seeing some sort of confusion/mind control as a hard CC. We don't really need to see DAoC mezz though... although with friendly fire... perhaps it isn't a bad idea to revisit it.

Edited by Adall

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The need for stunlocks were to counter  healers..... and now we don't have fire hydrants. There should be a bit off soft cc and a little bit of hard cc.

Healers are only as strong as your stupidity you have around you. A good healer will be shut down by a good team. 

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I feel like cc should be a mechanic for escape and not an opportunity for instagibb.

Based on what we've been told, it takes 40 seconds to kill someone who is standing still doing nothing. I don't think instagibbing will be a big thing in this game, if at all. So far, the only stun we've seen is the Confessor who can stun for 2-3 seconds on a single target, so being stun-locked will take a large number of organized confessors to be able to lockdown a single person. I don't think any of these concerns about being unable to do anything for a full fight will reveal themselves as valid.

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Based on what we've been told, it takes 40 seconds to kill someone who is standing still doing nothing. I don't think instagibbing will be a big thing in this game, if at all. So far, the only stun we've seen is the Confessor who can stun for 2-3 seconds on a single target, so being stun-locked will take a large number of organized confessors to be able to lockdown a single person. I don't think any of these concerns about being unable to do anything for a full fight will reveal themselves as valid.

There is a 40s ttk. However, I forget who said that that dev he was facing wasn't very good. 

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There is a 40s ttk. However, I forget who said that that dev he was facing wasn't very good. 

I think it was just a test, meaning one guy stood there and the other just whacked him again and again in melee with auto attack. So in reality, the ttk will probably be greater than 40s with the players moving and missing. Thus my statement about how insti-kills won't likely be a thing unless you're really low on health before the fight begins.

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I think it was just a test, meaning one guy stood there and the other just whacked him again and again in melee with auto attack. So in reality, the ttk will probably be greater than 40s with the players moving and missing. Thus my statement about how insti-kills won't likely be a thing unless you're really low on health before the fight begins.

CC's need to be in the game and for one main reason, the fights are going to be longer than people think. I do not want to have to beat on some guy for 5 minutes straight..

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I dont know what got into you... I on the other hand like to counter my opponent and like to exploit his weaknesses and use my strength to win a fair and square fight. I care for the game and want to make it better, give feedback and share my ideas and opinions with the community. Keep your only CC game or No CC game to you whatever you may prefer. Maybe World of Warcraft is good for you! In the themepark instanced PvP CC and permanent lock down is crucial! That may suit you =) Keep what ever you believe is good.

 

LMAO The old World of Warcraft insult eh? Perhaps your reading comprehension is a bit rusty so let me reiterate. Permastun is stupid... But if you have read anything about the actual powers of the Knight and Fessor they have these neat things called iFrame powers which remove you from the physics of the world and make you immune to damage for short time frame's. I believe the fessor's even removes all soft CC or at least slows/roots. That is called a counter mechanic, you would use it in a situation like enemies blowing cc and burst damage abilities on you. We have no idea what the speed of combat is, so discussing length of cc is kind of a moot point. Why cry about a 4 second stun when it takes 25 seconds of focus fire to kill someone. But take a look back at most hardcore pvp games or even competitive skill based MOBA's. All include stuns and other cc. Your looking at this from a 1v1 arena situation when this is a throne war simulator. :D

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LMAO The old World of Warcraft insult eh? Perhaps your reading comprehension is a bit rusty so let me reiterate. Permastun is stupid... But if you have read anything about the actual powers of the Knight and Fessor they have these neat things called iFrame powers which remove you from the physics of the world and make you immune to damage for short time frame's. I believe the fessor's even removes all soft CC or at least slows/roots. That is called a counter mechanic, you would use it in a situation like enemies blowing cc and burst damage abilities on you. We have no idea what the speed of combat is, so discussing length of cc is kind of a moot point. Why cry about a 4 second stun when it takes 25 seconds of focus fire to kill someone. But take a look back at most hardcore pvp games or even competitive skill based MOBA's. All include stuns and other cc. Your looking at this from a 1v1 arena situation when this is a throne war simulator. :D

Congrats you payed attention. Sadly for you I did too and this in nothing new for me but rather disrespectful, Little information from my side: In some other cambat thread somebody said ACE shoots at a time-to-kill of 40s atm. But every time they play with Nicholas (Animator at ACE) he tends to die very quick because he doesnt block. So no healer back scratching you or just one button press 60% less damage, isnt it sad? You will need skill :(

Your looking at this from a 1v1 arena situation when this is a throne war simulator.  :D

Of course I do, I play a Duelist. I will not fight for any throne. I will make this game for me into a 1v1 open world skirmish arena. I already gather my sparring partners :P

 

Dont worry I know what I wanna play and I know the information that they gave us pretty well, including the idea and game design philosophy behind it all.

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I'm wondering how many stuns each class will have available, given that we haven't seen the promotion classes or disciplines yet. Though 2-3 second stuns with a ttk of 40 seconds or greater is pretty good, and doesn't seem terrible to me. It's more a question of access, since we don't know if this is the only stun this class or any class will get, and I would rather not see a character with 3 or 4 different stun abilities.

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Hard CC is the bane of ANY PvP game. Those that love long CCs tend to be the type of player that only roams in large packs, or those that stay stealthed for hours at a time wanting a quick kill.

Skills that deal half health or more in a single attack are also the bane of true PvP games. A PvPer enjoys out thinking and actually challenging themselves...one shots or 3 shots are not challenging, trading blows and the fight being close decided by appropriately timed dodges, self heals, self cleanses, and blocks...this is what a PvPer craves.

Those only interested in fast kills and high kill counts are just bleed overs from FPS games that don't understand GOOD PvP combat.

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Hard CC is the bane of ANY PvP game. Those that love long CCs tend to be the type of player that only roams in large packs, or those that stay stealthed for hours at a time wanting a quick kill.

Skills that deal half health or more in a single attack are also the bane of true PvP games. A PvPer enjoys out thinking and actually challenging themselves...one shots or 3 shots are not challenging, trading blows and the fight being close decided by appropriately timed dodges, self heals, self cleanses, and blocks...this is what a PvPer craves.

Those only interested in fast kills and high kill counts are just bleed overs from FPS games that don't understand GOOD PvP combat.

I generally don't feel good when I killed someone due to abusing hard cc.  I'd rather actively outplay someone than chain cc them and beat on a player that might as well be afk. 

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