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Santovenia

Please don't build any stuns (or equivalent) into the game.

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@VIKINGNAIL

 

The games in referring to that I got good enough to do such things are Darkfall and Freelancer. I could also reference Halo (All of them) and Dust 514 but games like that are so full of constant killing you're bound to be godlike once in awhile. All of those are full manual aim fairly fast paced games but I don't think I've ever flawlessed a group of more than 2 or 3 opponents. (By flawlessed I mean all of them dead without any HP loss on my end.)

 

That argument is like saying that damage favors greater numbers, so we should not have damage in the game.

Stuns along with other stuff like debuffs and traps offer a more dynamic gameplay, with choices. Saying you dont want stuns because a zerg of 100 people can kill you more easily is not a good enough argument against stuns.

Not really at all. Dodging favors skill over numbers. Life-steal favors skill over numbers. Stealth, head shots, and position based damage favor skills over numbers. These are mechanics that if used properly allow a smaller more skilled force to defeat a greater force.

 

Stuns, tab-targeting, roots etc. favor numbers over skill.

 

Stuns bring the game one step closer to the kind of title where the stats/numbers gap is the main determining factor in victory and a step further from games where the skill/tactics of the players involved is the main determining factor.

 

I do believe there needs to be SOME balance between those but stuns are probably the worst / most frustrating mechanic for doing so.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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That argument is like saying that damage favors greater numbers, so we should not have damage in the game.

Stuns along with other stuff like debuffs and traps offer a more dynamic gameplay, with choices. Saying you dont want stuns because a zerg of 100 people can kill you more easily is not a good enough argument against stuns.

 

I agree with this completely traps and stuns offer more dynamic game play I could not say it better myself.

 

I do not have a problem with stuns at all... I am sure they will test stuns and they already stated that you will not be stun locked to death so this is really a non issue move on......

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When talking about skill-based games, I generally prefer this mantra:

 

Every skill should be aim-able, counter-able and/or dodge-able and you should always be able to do something. 

 

In my experience, hard CC (like stuns) or hard defense (like Holy Shield from WoW Paladins) stop the game for players for a certain amount of time. The game should never stop, for any reason, but should be dynamic and relentless. Personally, it's just more fun that way. 

 

Soft CC is, of course, fine and should be in the game. 


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I've said this many times (even in this thread) the only skill based hard CC is a mez, it takes both you and your opponent out of combat. Anyone so much as sneezes in you or the person you mez's direction it breaks. Thus it requires skill to use, and is worthless in any 1v1 confrontation.


"Lawful Good does not always mean Lawful Nice."

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The 1 for 1 lockdown idea actually makes alot of sense in a larger group meta. I forgot how much I missed old school enchanters.

 

Coordinating with a Knight to pull in and then mez someone would be interesting. 

Edited by Zandur

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Two questions for everyone supporting stuns:

 

1. Have you REALLY thought about how this game will be and how having someone locked down and completely unable to move / a stationary target will affect this action based 3rd person shooter or are you thinking of it in terms or the 100% accuracy or RNG generated hit tab-targeted WoW clones you're likely used to?

 

2. What do you feel stuns and other hard-CCs add to the game that is truly needed here, and cannot be accomplished as well or better by soft-CCs such as pulls, damage debuffs, and slowdowns?


"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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Perhaps I should be a little more clear.

 

I was referring to original Darkfall, which had blinds, knock ups, knock backs and pulls - very little in the way of hard CC that prevents you from controlling your character (like a stun, sleep etc). It's that sort of hard CC that, in my opinion, has no place in a game focused on massive battles.

 

Wall of force was the cloesst thing to hard CC that Darkfall Online had, as far as I can recall, but that could hinder your team as well as helping them. The same with blinds. On top of that, WoF sucked your character into it - but you could still perform actions, attack, cast spells.

 

I played WoW arena to Gladiator level, and hard CC with diminishing returns works there, because its a controlled environment where you can keep track and measure these things. In a game like Crowfall, you're not going to be able to do that - there is nothing controlled about a 400 man siege. :P

 

It works in a small group setting, but the bigger the battles get - the less fun it generally becomes.

Would like to see something like this. What I've always hated is using a move and then watch my 30 second cooldown skillshot land and NOT WORK!! All because of an artificial balancing mechanic like a DR CC-immunity. But at least, if I can still retain some control of my character, there wouldn't be as much need for CC-immunity. I say that for any form of CC, let it have some form of effect on a player even in that stun only works for a fraction of a second, otherwise its just going to be all kinds of BS. The only thing more frustrating than being stunlocked: to watch your life-saving CC not work at all, just for the sake of "balance." (Or to just watch ANY move not work/have no effect)

 

TBH, the way CC-immunity as a viable mechanic has been dying for a while now. No MOBA offers any form of CC-immunity that doesn't require the players direct input (activating a long CD ability or trinket), and games that do include it are always under attack for balancing. It's going to sound weird, but I'd like to see super smash bros forms of CC: the Hard CC is incredibly short ranged and hard to land (with either significant windups or ending lag animations or having the smallest hitboxes) and lasting only for a small amount of time, being little more than just interruptions of the other player's animations. And they work EVERY TIME THEY LAND.

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Two questions for everyone supporting stuns:

 

1. Have you REALLY thought about how this game will be and how having someone locked down and completely unable to move / a stationary target will affect this action based 3rd person shooter or are you thinking of it in terms or the 100% accuracy or RNG generated hit tab-targeted WoW clones you're likely used to?

 

2. What do you feel stuns and other hard-CCs add to the game that is truly needed here, and cannot be accomplished as well or better by soft-CCs such as pulls, damage debuffs, and slowdowns?

 

1. TERA has shown us examples of this, so yes, I can imagine it without the tab targetting.

 

2. They are another way to reward a player for their skill in pulling off/landing these abilities, while also providing moveset variety in terms of how players are rewarded for their skill beyond damaging enemy/healing ally (things like blind, knockdown, knockup, stun, fear, etc.)

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1. TERA is smart-targeted not manual aim. Hit or miss isn't really a factor there, kinda like ESO.

 

2. Nice politician answer. I asked if there is anything accomplished by hard CC not accomplished by soft CC and you make a post defending CC. I like CC too. Specifically soft-CC. You didn't answer my question.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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Two questions for everyone supporting stuns:

 

1. Have you REALLY thought about how this game will be and how having someone locked down and completely unable to move / a stationary target will affect this action based 3rd person shooter or are you thinking of it in terms or the 100% accuracy or RNG generated hit tab-targeted WoW clones you're likely used to?

 

2. What do you feel stuns and other hard-CCs add to the game that is truly needed here, and cannot be accomplished as well or better by soft-CCs such as pulls, damage debuffs, and slowdowns?

 

After seeing the gameplay today, CC in all forms seems likely. Doesn't appear to be a "shooter" or very fast paced like DF. Chasing folks around forever most likely won't be a huge design goal.

 

At the same time, I hope stuns and what not aren't as easy as clicking a button and ta da, free hits/kill. They should take some effort/skill to land.

 

Physics, collision, aiming, animation locks, friendly fire, long TTK, various system to counter/decrease CC, etc seem decent ways to balance it out.

 

What I do know is that whatever has/hasn't worked in whatever previous games aren't hugely relevant as CF is unlike what's come before. I look at it as a total package, not particular features pulled out.

 

A 1 sec stun might be easier to deal with then a 5 sec slow/silence or whatever depending on the archetype and situation. We simply don't know how it will all work just yet.

 

Now if stuns are long duration or can be stacked by multiple targets quickly along with TTK going out the window when attackers go up, regardless of "skill", then it will be an issue.

 

Although I'm not looking to play Kitefall where I'm chasing people (or being chased) for 5 mins on end for what could of been handled with a 1 sec "stop" ability to put both sides into combat. Rather die/kill quickly then prolong it just to get lucky or hope somehow running 10 miles has made my opponent worse than when we started.

 

They've already shown various forms of CC, all of which give attackers/numbers an advantage which is the point last I checked. There is always the option to play with others and hope they are better than the enemy.

 

While I don't doubt you've won 5 vs 1, I'm assuming it wasn't "evenly matched" enemies. Simply because 5 > 1. If you are able to outmatch them, they weren't on your level or there were some wonky game mechanics to allow for such. FPS and games that have short TTK sure, but don't see that happening in CF without an OP build. Stuns or not, numbers should win most the time when matched well.

 

If however 5 scrubs are able to stun lock you and take you down, that is an issue which I hope they avoid through proper design. Maybe they'll get a few free shots, but there should be enough time to react to either escape or work your way through them by exploiting their weaknesses.

 

At this point, seems they don't want 1 shot kills, 20 sec stuns, or whatever "no fun" for the victim situations. Glad they are going for "fun" for everyone when designing things.

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It was in Freelancer. I was flying an eagle with class 9/10 weapons against 5 other Eagles with class 9/10 weapons. I believe my setup was better but it was actually easier to acquire than some of theirs, and I was a vastly more skilled player but there are no character stats in that game.

 

What enabled me to defeat them is I played to my advantage. Shield regeneration was quick in that game and I was using veteran maneuvers while they were untrained. I'd kill one then go defensive (I was probably one of / thee best pilot at avoiding fire while playing defensive on my server) until my shield recharged fully.

 

With Darkfall where I killed 5/7 opponents before reinforcements arrived they were fairly evenly geared. I'm not aware of their player stats but my only real good stats were my greatsword and archery. Again the major difference is I had received PvP training from veteran players. Admittedly, I had the first target down to nearly dead before the other 6 arrived. What enabled me to win there is they were missing most of their shots and failing to put distance on me as I stickybacked them with a greatsword 1 by 1.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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So you weren't evenly matched and mechanics allowed you to take that skill advantage to negate the number advantage, makes sense.

 

After the video yesterday, I'm hoping you can see the difference between something like Freelancer/DF and what they have so far with CF.

 

It is not apples to apples.

 

Goes back to your own question of have you really thought about THIS game and how it will function.

 

Looks like combat in CF will be much slower and static that DF for example. So the impact of being CC'd isn't as huge as DF where most combat takes place chasing/running around swinging/shooting at any opening.

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Two questions for everyone supporting stuns:

 

1. Have you REALLY thought about how this game will be and how having someone locked down and completely unable to move / a stationary target will affect this action based 3rd person shooter or are you thinking of it in terms or the 100% accuracy or RNG generated hit tab-targeted WoW clones you're likely used to?

 

2. What do you feel stuns and other hard-CCs add to the game that is truly needed here, and cannot be accomplished as well or better by soft-CCs such as pulls, damage debuffs, and slowdowns?

Simple solution. You get stunned, fine. Then you get a little stun immunity afterwards. These will be scaled based off duration of stun.

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We can see from the initial alpha streams that even in a many-v-1 situation, a single stun does not mean automatic death. Obviously there's a lot of balance work between here and release but the info we have today is that this concern is unfounded.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

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Stuns are fine, short duration/long cooldown. A real stunlock from full to nothing should require multiple people timing things correctly.

 

This is the best point, one person should not be able to lock someone down but a group of people timing things correctly is fine.  You can always go the diminishing returns route as well so that it is not abused.


Kloke

Shadowbane / Server: War / Guild: DHL / Thief: Yin / Scout: Plexiglassdragon

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Stuns are strategic and can make or break a fight.  A poorly timed stun can cost you a fight, while a perfectly timed one can turn a situation where you're outnumbered into your favor.

 

Stuns are a requirement for pvp imo.  Having said that, they should not be able to be dished out out like chocolates at grandma's house.

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Stuns are sorta needed. I completely agree, it is extremely annoying when it happens to you, but nobody ever complains when they get to wail on a completely helpless person to loot trying to flee. Stuns should be limited, but that's a given in any game. We can't have knights that do 9 second stuns where the player on the ground is completely helpless. Likewise, we can't have no stuns because players need a way to disable other players when engaged in combat.

The current system they have I think will work extremely well for this "problem". Currently stuns are usually limited to combos and some classes (like the Knight) have a chain to pull enemies in to help "slow" players. Plus remember, Crowfall had the good idea of the "random" bonus moves that sometimes appear when in stress. For instance, the centaur sometimes can randomly "kick" when stunned to break free. I think that is a great idea so that you will have an equal amount of:

"Wow I was stunned and completely helpless and died, but, I guess it's fine since the last two times I got stunned my 'burst of energy' power showed up"

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From the looks of it they are going to put stuns in this game, I don't think its going to change. But I do agree, stuns are gay af. Blind and root is a way better option, blind casters, root melee. Make it a full blind though that your whole screen goes white, you legit cant see anything for a period of time, but maybe you get lucky and still kill them.

 

Good idea OP

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