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wizardchakka

How would you like your cc's, sir?

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So. Seems that the confessor ability news generated a lot of discussion about cc's in general. How would you like to see crowd control abilities implemented in the game? If at all, that is.

 

Personally, I feel that AoC in the AA era solved this the best of any MMO I've played. For those who dont know, here's a brief recap.

 

1. Every class has access to at least some CC's, with cooldowns in the minutes usually

2. Durations on hard cc's (stun, kb) generally between 2-5 sec, soft cc's (snare, root) up to about 10secs

3. You get hit by a type of CC, you get an immunity to that type of CC for 30-60sec depending on CC type and duration

4. Every class also has access to at least one CC breaking ability (only rogue classes had more than one really), with a cooldown of 1-5 minutes

5. This CC break can be used during CC effect, breaking all cc effects immediately

6. Can also be used pre-emptively (the effect has a duration of 5secs), so, if you anticipate a stun, or even see it coming, you can negate that by pre-emptive CC break (the ability could be used amidst combos/animation locks as an instant)

7. Using a CC break also clears any CC immunities you might have

8. Taking damage during CC could also break the CC effect, stuns often were just about stopping your opponent for a split second and getting that first hit in

 

The key to this system being good IMO was that

 

1. you couldnt be chain cc'd effectively because of immunities (stun locks suck bottom, looking at you tera)

2. the multi-purpose mechanics of the CC break ability, and your own thinking on when was the best time to just eat the cc and when to use the valuable break

3. short durations of cc's (again looking at you tera)

4. you had to actually think when to use cc's yourself; did you see your opponent use his break yet? does he have any current immunities?

 

Long (and plentiful) cc's that cannot be countered in any way equal the death of fast-paced action combat. Some kind of counter mechanic is required in my opinion, something ELSE than just relying on support classes possible cleanse-type abilities (which are a nice addition as well, but do not require any skilled input from the player himself). If not an activated ability, then a general purpose dodge that requires precision timing to pull off. Looking out for your opponents current CC immunities ala AoC might or might not be possible, dunno if CF will have status icons, or even healthbars (that could be of a different color depending on opponent status) so maybe this wouldnt be applicable.

 

As a side note, in AoC KB's reigned as the supreme king of CC's because only rogue classes (sometimes, depending on their builds) had a counter-ability to kb's which had to be used pre-emptively to work at all, and avoiding knockdowns with back-step dodges (available to everyone) was beyond most players skills of accurate timing/anticipation (had to be done the same time your opponent is doing his kb-animation).

 

There we go, a wall of text praising the gameplay and mechanics of AoC. Who saw that coming?

 

(ps. if CF is going to go "light healing", some good ways of doing this can also be found in AoC, IMO. But that's a matter for a separate discussion)

Edited by wizardchakka

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I feel this is a must-have.

 

Yup, it really is IMO. But that coin comes with a flip-side; ppl would then need some kind of a visual clue to tell that there's an immunity running, even if only to avoid the countless "[bug Report]: My stun doesnt work" threads this would generate.

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Hitting someone with a CC effect while they're immune to it should extend or reset the immunity timer. Otherwise, there's no incentive not to have people spamming CCs so that you get hit as soon as your immunity's gone.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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I feel this is a must-have.

 

 

I don't think that's good at all. It's archaic. Diminishing returns, yes, perhaps, but not flat out immunity. It was garbage in Shadowbane and it's garbage in almost every MO that has it. It makes the role of disruption/cc/utility very one dimensional and almost without impact. In this game, there are no primary healers and thus such an immunity would completely screw over bringing more than one support character or more than one character with a stun, etc.

 

In addition, it's a combat game. You have to aim, dodge, dash, sprint, use iFrames and block. This makes CC much harder to assure. There is no need for flat out immunities, again, perhaps a diminishing return yes, but not immunity.

 

Long immunities just don't gel well with the Crowfall design. It's bad for worlds when you can target allies (pre-stunning etc) and it's bad for roles that rely on constant CC (disruption, support, tanks, etc). Infact it's just flat out bad. Oh, you stunned that guy 40 seconds ago? I guess my build defining long-ass stun that I have and just wasted for naught doesn't matter. Etc.


Crazy Talk co-co-co-gl

Guardians of Moonforest fangirl

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Hitting someone with a CC effect while they're immune to it should extend or reset the immunity timer. Otherwise, there's no incentive not to have people spamming CCs so that you get hit as soon as your immunity's gone.

I wouldn't think that'd be an issue for CF though. If you spam abilities you'll be out of mana/energy/stamina etc. They mentioned in yesterdays article that if you hit an ability with no one targeted with your reticle the ability will go off, resource will be used and will hit no one. So in a game based on action combat and resource management spamming is already inherently discouraged IMO.

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taroskin: I'm a bit confused as to why you would say that immunities would screw over bringing more than one char with a stun? Every character benefits from a CC ability. Besides, surely there is more to a supporting/disrupting character than cc, I dont see how having immunities would make it one dimensional? Debuffs, buffs, jumping in to deal damage, creating/altering terrain features, turrets, whatever.. With physics abilities, even moving people around (though this could be considered a type of cc I guess).

 

If your build has a defining ability it revolves around, like the long stun you say, all the more so you should be careful at looking where to apply it most effectively.

 

Without reasonably timed cooldowns, immunities or other hard counters to cc's, group combat is likely to devolve into a cc-fest.

 

I'm not saying diminishing returns couldnt be possible approach, but the curve would have to be really steep to make any difference at all.

Edited by wizardchakka

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The point is that long duration outright flat immunities are archaic and only serve to limit player choice, builds and strategy. It is abusable in the design of Crowfall and doesn't make a whole lot of sense in an action game. Other viable alternatives have been tried and tested, such as rare and small duration CC with 0 diminishing returns or immunities, or just using a scaling diminishing return, or even flat immunity that only lasts for 5-8 seconds, such as ESO.

 

These options are all superior. Those minute long CC immunities, ala Shadowbane & DAoC are just super old and tired. They existed only because CCs were 10+ seconds long (or even more than that). An action game such as crowfall needs consistent, small duration CCs and an ebb & flow of combat with back and forth action, not one guy getting 10 second stunned and keeling over. As such, it's not suitable for 30+ second immunities after being subject to a CC.

Edited by taroskin

Crazy Talk co-co-co-gl

Guardians of Moonforest fangirl

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I hope they move away from hard cc's. I don't think giving them a high cooldown or diminishing returns really fixes the problem. They are strong abilities and the game will still be played around them. They become "I Win" buttons.

 

I'd prefer abilities that don't remove control of the player's character(or at least the feeling of control). Now that we have a more action based system it opens up the option for things that can effect your aiming. Blinds can cover your screen, allowing you to still control your character but you are literally blind. The voxel system also opens up options for different kinds of abilities that effect the terrain.

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Thanks for elaborating.

 

An action game such as crowfall needs consistent, small duration CCs and an ebb & flow of combat with back and forth action, not one guy getting 10 second stunned and keeling over.

 

We are very much in agreement here. However, I'd like to think that the long duration immunities are not related strictly to those long duration cc's, they're also related to the general amount of cc's in the game. It doesnt matter if the cc's only last a short while if there are lots of them to go around, then stunlocks will inevitably happen.

 

Correct approach would depend on the amount of CC's available to archetypes in CF in general, with overall CC resistance and countering increasing with the amount of total CC's. If there are only a very few CC's, maybe no immunities or even diminishing returns would be needed. I wouldnt like this. I'd like every archetype to have access to one, two, or in a few select archetypes, even three short duration CC's. As you say, consistent small duration CC's spice up action combat.

 

Anyway, I guess what I really meant in my OP was that I'd like different ways to counter CC's. Immunities, steeply diminishing returns, whatever, these are all passive measures that do not require any player input. They'd be good to be there in some form, to prevent endless cc-locking once you get that first cc in. The active option would then of course be an activated ability, a dodge with iFrames, just something that rewards "skilled input" from the player.

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Off the top of my head I'd like a simple system like:

 

(stage 1) First CC - 100% duration

 

(within 7 seconds of first CC ending) Second CC - 50% duration

 

Player has a visual effect at this point

 

(within 7 seconds of second CC ending) Third CC - triggers immunity vs that type of CC for 4x the duration (so if the 3rd cc was a 3s stun = 12s immunity)

 

Resets to stage 1 after immunity


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Personally, I'd like to see each class get maybe one/two soft CC's, single target/AoE depending on class, durations should be substantial but off-set by high cooldown/cost to use. Hard CCs should be rare, and hard to hit if the enemy can see you coming.

 

For example: Centaur charges at a unit, he hits the unit with enough force (something along the lines of ( ((unit mass+target speed)X(strength modifier)) / (target mass x mass modifiers) = Z ) Depending on the Z value, the target is either not effected, thrown back some, or knocked down, along with damage done. This would allow hard CCs to be fairly counter-able (slow/ensnare when charging) and not easily spammable(since you'd have to run back and charge again)

 

I'd also like to see them add in duration modifiers based on stats, not just items/buff that say "reduce CC duration by 35%" but things like high agi/dex characters getting up from a knock-down quicker, while low agi/dex taking longer.

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I think the entire system of hard CC and immunity/removals is binary. In the opening days of League of Legends, there were far less CC distributed and more soft or partial disables like silence, blind and snare, and far more slows.

Power creep with each character introduced more stuns and suppression, than more CC reduction and removal/immunity arose, than it became mostly knock ups because they could only be preemptively prevented.

And the games less than it was. They could have relied more on interrupts along with more channeling, more blind and silence, and alternatives like mana burn, a lot of behaviors declined because they don't even work in the all knock up all the time, 2 knock ups on 1 champ gameplay.

For an action game, especially a war strategy, hard CC should be tied to more substantial commitments, slow attacks that are more deterrent than expected suppressors, power moves that are designed to be game changers, and suppression behaviors that require a player to tie his character down with his opponent, putting them both in jeopardy.

Soft CC should be explored much more, as well as making hard CC softer. Imagine that a knockdown has an actual fatigue figure, like this strike knocks foe over if they are low on stamina, and removes some stamina otherwise, or its guaranteed to knock down a Guinecean, like everything does, but Guineceans get up so fast that knockdowns only interrupt them, the average knockdown may otherwise be ineffective vs a Minotaur, and only interrupt them, only a Champion or Centaur may be able to bowl over a Minotaur. Maybe a Centaur is hard to knockdown, but he recovers very poorly.

Going further than that, let's review soft CC. Not just blind or snare, let's say instead of a sudden knockback, you have to push a foe and they only move backward as long as you continue to push, more if your heavier than them, less if your lighter, the foe could use a push skill too to halt, slow or reverse the push, an ally can push his partner to overpower the foes push back.

These things can't be achieved with sudden knockbacks, it has to be gradual and recognizable for there to be reactive play.

Let's talk about partial disables. Why are you stunned completely, why not slowed and crippled so you can't execute gap closers? Why not compromised so you can't block, but can still attack? Why not disarmed that way you can't attack, or more uniquely, have to switch to another readied weapon, like a sword, dagger or fists?

In a large scale fight, you don't need to render your foe completely helpless to compromise him, you hit a knight with a block breaker which prevents him from using block momentary if you hit him with it while he's blocking, now you and your allies have a license to go offensive because you know he can't counter you with a block. How about immobilizing them? In a skill shot game where all your actions are manually directed, even slow, hard to land ones, immobilization could be the death sentence to ouch town. It doesn't matter if he can block or attack, because you know he can't avoid that block breaker and you know that 3 second charge up nuke is gonna land. Meanwhile, that immobilized knight isn't helpless, he can charge up his shield slam in a hope to cover his vulnerability with a menacing attack.

And then lastly, there is the component of compounding soft CC. In a hard CC scenario, you just chain cheap shots, which are no longer any challenge to land after the initial CC, and methodically obliterate a foe while refreshing CC or diversifying it so cheesy CC immunities are circumvented. But in a partial disable system, a take down can include matching up several CC effects on the same foe to systematically remove every option. Even if the foe becomes completely locked, he can look around himself and say, yeah, that was a 6 on one ambush, he took out my legs, she disabled my block and that one interrupted my spell, and that other guy slowed me so I couldn't hobble away after the first immobilize expired, and that other jerk knocked me down while the other ones meteor was incoming... The whole time.

Cheap mechanisms remove more from the game than they add. Confessors flame thrower could have a minor push ability that slows foes trying to press through it when they move toward them, or it could generally slow them. Smaller more natural CC effects allow for much more emergent gameplay.

Let's not be binary.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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With as much physics as possible.

 

A simple stun was good enough for UO and 1997 and maybe that kind of baseline has become mandatory. But 2015, with tornadoes and gravity wells, all governed by physics, now that's CC :)

Edited by oberon

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I feel this is a must-have.

Total agreement.  If hard CC is in the game, it must be rare.  Nothing bores me more than a game (see: Archeage) where the result of the combat is decided by getting the first CC off and then hopping around the other player as I massacre them.  I'll add prevention and removal are key, too.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Hard CCs, like stuns, sleep, knockdowns or whatever else they have been called over the years, basically everything which turns a player into a spectator, should be rare and very short (think one second maximum). There is (almost) nothing more annoying then being forced to watch the game you're supposed to be playing.

Microstuns (very short stuns, like 0.1 seconds, but applied very fast or often) get a similar treatment, because while they are easier to play against then normal stuns they often manage to be even more annoying.

 

CCs that only remove part of your abilities are better, but should still be kept somewhat rare. Silence and disarms at least let you keep fighting back with a limited palette of skills and snares let you keep your bite while turning you into an unmoving target. They are still highly intrusive to gameplay but at least you can still do something.

They can be fun as long as cost and effect and their availability are well enough balanced.

 

The best kind of CCs are the ones that limit a players options somewhat, but do not outright forbid anything.

Slows, to movement as well as attack and casting, are good tools. Skills that slow enemy cooldowns for a while but still let them cast anything are good tools. Tethers that limit a players movement to a small area (or the vicinity of another player) are vastly preferable to snares.

"Punishment" skills are also good, "if you do x then y happens" like for example guild wars Mesmers and their backfire (if enemy casts a spell he takes x damage).

 

Knockbacks and pulls can also be fun to play with (and against), as can other "unwanted movement"-effects (e.g. ice, altered gravity) if they're well done.

 

I'm also no friend of diminishing returns or even outright immunity on CC. They feel like a band-aid made of bad game design slapped on gaping wounds caused by even worse decisions.

There are other things you can do to "fix" CC. Limiting the availability of the worst offenders is a big one. Protective buffs are another. For example why not give a spell to druids and some templer subtype that prevents nearby friendlies from being CC'd?

I'd prefer that fighting enemy CCs be something proactive first, reactive second and something passive that happens on its own a far, far away on third place.

 

bahamutkaiser also had a good point with making CC context sensitive, with their effects depending on target archetype, his stamina and so on. It would create a rather unique dynamic.


Constant optimism will not solve your problems,


but it will annoy enough people to be worth the effort.

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I'm not a fan of flat out immunities. 

Unless everyone has the same stun duration then I think i would be bad for some classes to use their own abilities.

I'f I go into a fight and I get stunned by a 0.5 sec rock throw from a peasant I'd be cheering. For the next minute I won't be able to be stunned by any of the classes with a good stun which might be 3 seconds.

 

I could see this causing people to tell the bad stun classes to not use their abilities so the better stun classes can use all their abilities. 

In a way if you get stunned by the rock throw you were basically buffed by your enemy with godly immunity which I don't think would be seen as a good idea.

I'f ever class as the same duration on stun... of lets say 2 seconds then the problem isn't as bad but it still causes the problem of unskilled players stunning not critical moments in a fight causing the enemy to be immune.

 

 

I'm more of a fan of diminishing returns. It's worked before and I had absolutely no issues with it.

Edited by Cheewy

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I like the concept of stability from games like Dark Souls or Dragon Nest.

 

Essentially, you start out with a stability life bar that prevents you from being hard CCed or staggered by damage. Getting hit reduces your stability and if it reaches 0 you can be stunned at will. Add in some skills that heal/regenerate stability or reduce the amount lost so that it is more a matter of who is better at managing their stability than who can burn through stab faster.

 

Say you have a dwarf with 2 skills, mountain stance roots him but reduces stability damage by 75% for a few seconds, and vigor which regenerates 5% stability per second for 10 seconds. By avoiding the abilities that do a lot of stability damage, tanking the lesser one with mountain stance and regening stab in between with vigor, you have a reasonably deep and skillful, but simple to implement and understand system.

 

The big upside to this system is that you don't get CCed at the start of a fight and die before you can use a skill. I'm looking at your Archeage and Guildwars 2.

Edited by caffynated

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I regret that I have but one like to give. Good post, Caffynated.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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