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wizardchakka

How would you like your cc's, sir?

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If CC stands for Crowd Control, it should be about controlling large amounts of players and breaking up battle lines in strategic ways. As someone from the other thread suggested, I would prefer CC to be initiated on a macro level rather than a micro level, affecting the battleground environment instead of specific individuals. Introducing CCs as clear, defined obstacles that can be actively overcome and avoided with player awareness and skill is much preferable to something that is locked directly onto your character causing all choice to be taken from you simply because someone else pushed their button first.

Edited by Mytherceria

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I just hope avoid CC's being chained to the point where I am stun locked due to different types of CC's or different people using the same/different type of CC's. To me nothing is more angering than going into a fight, and dying without even getting a chance to fight because you couldn't do anything. I.e. You've used your cc break abilities and your immunity doesn't work because its a different player locking you down now.

A couple of games that are terrible for this:
SWTOR (idk if it still is, but it was even after they added the immunity)
Archeage 

That's just a more of the recent one's
I don't mind CC's that debuff like in UO, Poison would be a DoT and prevent self healing for x amount of time, but I could fight still, you had paralyze and force field, etc etc. But none of them really hampered my ability to either get away, or fight a fair fight. 

 


"So Doggetts f****** crazy i know that" - J Todd Coleman

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Having played Tera fairly extensively, and given the more I hear about their direction and end goal the more I think combat will feel very Tera-like in practice, here's my overall take.

 

CC is important.  Tera's biggest problem in the CC department was, in part, due to power creep and the damage you could do in one combo as a result of a properly executed CC chain.  Some did last a bit too long and certain combos were a bit too good, though again more proper damage balance could have helped there.  If you ask me, the best method would be to first differentiate Hard CC and Soft CC, and then design a diminishing returns system based on every version of each type that fall under these two main categories.  Hard CC would be control that locks character input.  Soft would be where the character is diminished in some way but can still act, at least partially.

 

For Hard CC you should gain a virtual immunity to all CC of that type.  By virtual, I mean that reapplying that same kind of CC should be effectively a stagger, basically a "micro stun" where you're affected but shrug it off.  Let's call this Resistance.  Resistance lasts for two to three times as long as the duration the skill lasted.  If you got hit with a sleep that lasted a full 10 seconds, you'd be resistant to future sleeps for 20 to 30 seconds.  If you were stunned for one second, you'd be resistant for two to three seconds.  Being slept or stunned again "staggers" you, meaning any attack animation or movement you're involved in, so long as it's not an iframe or similar that would evade the attack completely, you flinch for half a second.  Certain hard hitting attacks and certain mid-to-end melee combos should stagger naturally as a method of keeping a target away, in close, or otherwise remaining still.  If you're staggered due to resistance, you would refresh the resistance up to a certain limit.  Sleeps, for example, if they are intended for long term CC (but break on damage, for example) would work the resistance refresh differently than short length stuns.  Perhaps sleeps simply add fewer and fewer seconds until the resistance can no longer refresh a meaningful amount of time, while stuns would add up indefinitely.  Depending on how that plays out, staggers may then require a resistance of their own, meaning for some few seconds you resist staggers and the type of CC that was staggering you.

 

Soft CC would have diminishing returns but never apply a resistance.  So, say your attack speed is reduced by some attack for 4 seconds by 30%, further application of attack speed debuffs would last less time and for less impact, up to let's say 70% reduced effect.  So, you could diminish that attack speed debuff to as short as just over one second and as minimal as under 10% reduced speed.  There would be no staggering related to any of this.  For proper DR, it may be worth having the functionality such that one skill that applies an attack speed debuff followed by another that reduces attack speed and movement speed would only apply DR to attack speed and not also move speed just because it's two debuffs in one skill.  The DR would add up to say 15 seconds of soft CC resistance and add to the DR timer and reduction amount similar to hard CC.  Depending on the skill and nature of the soft CC, it may be that it just reduces impact, and that may prove to be the better direction.  At least this way, it's always useful and lasts as long as it should (outside of cleansing) but at a reduced effect.

 

Knockbacks and other knockX skills would be a little different.  Depending on how they play out, they might not have any diminishing returns or resistance.  However, knocks that leave a character prone, namely knock downs, should not reapply a fresh KD and recovery animation, merely they should apply their own version of stagger during the recovery phase so that KD chains aren't reliably possible.  So, let's say it naturally takes 2.5 seconds to stand after being knocked down.  Someone else KD's while you're still down and it just extends to 3 seconds up to say 4 seconds total.  Reaching that total means you resist KD's specifically for 4 seconds and they only stagger you for that duration.

 

We obviously have a great opportunity for "player" CC as I'll call it where it actually affects something about the actual player's ability to see, hear, or apply correct input.  Blinding skills are probably the most common example where part of the screen might be blocked off completely for a few seconds or the screen is heavily blurred or discolored.  These would need to be addressed individually for sure, but I imagine they would typically be considered soft CC, having a DR, though depending on the skill resistance with or without stagger may apply after enough DR.

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Crowd control and how it is implemented here concerns me because of the talk that this game will be more action based without tab targeting perhaps.

 

I highly desire for there to exist the option to cc just in a manner that allows counter play options. So in that vein give me the crowd control system similar to Shadowbane and if at all possible highly telegraphed abilities so people can turn the tables and react.

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Several comments made about no hard cc's because first succesful stun = win. Didnt they state the mean TTK would be something like 40 secs? Wouldn't a 2-3sec hard cc be more like "this my move, now what's yours?" rather than an IWin button when the fights are designed to last for a longer time than just one or two succesful combos. Dont see any problem at all with them if there's some way to counter chaining in group situations.

 

Besides, it will also help in trying to run away from bad situations if you have some hard cc. Running into a surprise 1v1, or 1v2, or whatever, situation where you know for sure you would lose, and you also have no chance at all to escape is rather meh.

Edited by wizardchakka

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If CC stands for Crowd Control, it should be about controlling large amounts of players and breaking up battle lines in strategic ways. As someone from the other thread suggested, I would prefer CC to be initiated on a macro level rather than a micro level, affecting the battleground environment instead of specific individuals. Introducing CCs as clear, defined obstacles that can be actively overcome and avoided with player awareness and skill is much preferable to something that is locked directly onto your character causing all choice to be taken from you simply because someone else pushed their button first.

I really like this. Great point. Keeping the focus off 1v1 and on the big groups battles we all want to see.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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If CC stands for Crowd Control, it should be about controlling large amounts of players and breaking up battle lines in strategic ways. As someone from the other thread suggested, I would prefer CC to be initiated on a macro level rather than a micro level, affecting the battleground environment instead of specific individuals. Introducing CCs as clear, defined obstacles that can be actively overcome and avoided with player awareness and skill is much preferable to something that is locked directly onto your character causing all choice to be taken from you simply because someone else pushed their button first.

Creating physically impassable objects was a huge part of PvP in UO. Either through magic spells that created a wall or dropping impassable objects like furniture (the ghetto way to escape PKs in a dungeon). GW2 had that to a limited extent with short duration lines and rings and it plays a huge part in WvW tactics, but they goofed it up by making the stability boon let you walk through a wall of solid rock. It's also huge in DOTA clones for breaking up enemy teams in team fights or trapping people and keeping them from running.

 

With destructible objects, it would be really interesting to have classes like frost weaver create a long duration wall of ice or druid create a wall of wood/thorns that you have to hack/burn down to get through.

Edited by caffynated

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Creating physically impassable objects was a huge part of PvP in UO. Either through magic spells that created a wall or dropping impassable objects like furniture (the ghetto way to escape PKs in a dungeon). GW2 had that to a limited extent with short duration lines and rings and it plays a huge part in WvW tactics, but they goofed it up by making the stability boon let you walk through a wall of solid rock. It's also huge in DOTA clones for breaking up enemy teams in team fights or trapping people and keeping them from running.

 

With destructible objects, it would be really interesting to have classes like frost weaver create a long duration wall of ice or druid create a wall of wood/thorns that you have to hack/burn down to get through.

 

Yeah, these are some good examples of the kinds of CC I would like to see. Real area of effect CC that is obvious and visible is not only useful for controlling the battlefield and forcing the enemy to either panic or reassess and regroup, but it also allows a good team the opportunity to anticipate and avoid these situations because it doesn't just instantly and arbitrarily take away all player control.

 

Push of the button, instant cast skills that apply stuns, knockdowns, or snares that you can't see coming and can't get out of while actively playing the game (and I don't just mean pushing your own magic "get out of jail free" button) is what I would like Crowfall to avoid. Having avoidable CCs can obviously be done on the micro level with active dodge, block or parry mechanics, etc., but having an indication for those types of skills will be difficult without adding in something artificial like telegraphs. Macro level environmental CC effects are more obvious with less effort, would not need artificial telegraphs, plus they are more appropriate for a territory control game based on group content, rather than a 1v1 street fighter style game.

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Several comments made about no hard cc's because first succesful stun = win. Didnt they state the mean TTK would be something like 40 secs? Wouldn't a 2-3sec hard cc be more like "this my move, now what's yours?" rather than an IWin button when the fights are designed to last for a longer time than just one or two succesful combos. Dont see any problem at all with them if there's some way to counter chaining in group situations.

 

Besides, it will also help in trying to run away from bad situations if you have some hard cc. Running into a surprise 1v1, or 1v2, or whatever, situation where you know for sure you would lose, and you also have no chance at all to escape is rather meh.

I'm wondering how that actually works though? If I have 40 Confessors using 40 flame tornadoes on let's say a 20 second cooldown, and let's say they all do 1 second hard CC but it covers a significant area, that means I can cover two locations with permanent hard CC, and since it's AoE, an unknown number of foes.

 

This is a war game. It may not turn into organized warfare, but I want it to. Hard CC is a definite problem.

 

Your next scenario where your in a losing situation and you want to CC your foe does not require hard CC, a mobility only disable can stop them while you run, and their CC is just as likely to prevent you from running as yours is from preventing them from chasing, except they have multiplicitively more of it. And if it's all hard CC going around, their more likely to chain CC you while you can only hope to momentarily impede them. If it's soft CC, you can try to stop them and run, but if they try to stop you, they may not have stopped your ability to stall them as well til your free, or at least fight back while your impeded.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I'm wondering how that actually works though? If I have 40 Confessors using 40 flame tornadoes on let's say a 20 second cooldown, and let's say they all do 1 second hard CC but it covers a significant area, that means I can cover two locations with permanent hard CC, and since it's AoE, an unknown number of foes.

 

Yeah, large group fights is exactly why I consider some kind of immunities to be necessary. It's pretty much what I meant with "some way to counter chaining in group situations", the first part was about situations with only a few players involved, mean times to kill arent really applicable in huge fights. Just as a sidenote here, I do agree that AoE hard CC is problematic and probably shouldnt be available beyonde the ultra-rare. Say, environmental effects triggered through team work? Siege weapons?

 

This is a war game. It may not turn into organized warfare, but I want it to. Hard CC is a definite problem.

 

Your next scenario where your in a losing situation and you want to CC your foe does not require hard CC, a mobility only disable can stop them while you run, and their CC is just as likely to prevent you from running as yours is from preventing them from chasing, except they have multiplicitively more of it. And if it's all hard CC going around, their more likely to chain CC you while you can only hope to momentarily impede them. If it's soft CC, you can try to stop them and run, but if they try to stop you, they may not have stopped your ability to stall them as well til your free, or at least fight back while your impeded.

 

You are right that soft cc's could work too. But a hard cc here, if you execute it fast, would prevent your opponent from CC'ng you (especially classes with ranged CC like the confessor you already mentioned) in counter for a while, maybe getting you those few secs you need to get far enough. Archetypes will also have inherent mobility differences and some will probably have gap closers, so soft stuff like snares may not do anything for you if you get an unfavorable archetype matchup. Not balancing classes to be even nearly equal in 1v1 is all good, but it doesnt have to mean that escaping should be a no-no in those match-ups too. I'm creating worst case scenarios here of course, but just something to keep in mind I guess.

Edited by wizardchakka

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The point is still evident, if your using a soft CC which only stops opponent movement and than burn mobility techniques of your own, they can't CC you because of reach. If they however get you first and immobilize you, they will close on you, and you can still attack and attempt to CC them back than try to escape if your immobilize succeeds and outlasts theirs. They could chain snare you, but than their dedicating repeated actions to only stop your escape while you wail on them, they could try to stack other offensive disablers, but than they have less opportunity to keep you immobilized.

 

It's almost universally better for the escapee than the pursuers.

 

Relying on immunities in a war game is furthermore impractical, because there's little opportunity to observe individuals in a larger battle, and temporary CC blocks and removals will fall victim to more applications.

 

In a war simulation with no team size guidelines, effective AoE "Crowd" Control is necessary for smaller teams to counteract larger teams. Trying to circumvent every shortcoming of hard CC is far less practical than simply not having it.

 

It's better to prevent a problem than cooperate with it.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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