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Make Arrows An Item


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Maybe if you like that kind of stuff. There's plenty of people who would rather peel their eyes out with a rusty spoon.

 

Remember that the majority of people overall are more interested in the actual PvP combat and warfare than spending hours upon hours on gathering and crafting.

They should play a less resource intensive class. But I have a feeling that overall costs of playing ranged and melee will be the same on average. As a warrior you will need plate metal armor, which will cost more then archers leather. Edited by rajah
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Finite. Everything revolves around resources, and that should include ammo. Obviously casters should have some other way to attack also, like melee attacks, but giving infinite ammo removes and entire

There's many pros and cons to both Infinite and Finite ammo systems.    We have an idea on which path we are going go down, but this is a topic we've been discussing since the early days of Crowfall

It's amusing how "hardcore" PVPers get squishy when it's suggested that ammo is finite. Everything in Crowfall is resource limited. Your sword is going to dull and break. Your armor is going to rend a

Maybe if you like that kind of stuff. There's plenty of people who would rather peel their eyes out with a rusty spoon.

 

Remember that the majority of people overall are more interested in the actual PvP combat and warfare than spending hours upon hours on gathering and crafting.

You are correct. There are plenty of games that allow for infinite ammo. This game looks to be different than many numerous games prior to it, and Finite ammo would set it apart from other common games.

 

Based on the pedigree of ACE, I don't expect this game to at all be like many other popular games.

 

Either way, it doesn't make or break it for me.

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If I have to fletch arrows or some poorly made socks I will never make a ranged character.

You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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As a warrior you will need plate metal armor, which will cost more then archers leather.

That's a VERY dangerous road to go down and I hope that they won't do that. Melees are already at a disadvantage in a game like this that's based around sieges.

 

If tanks die more and take more hits than ranged(which will most likely happen) they take durability/decay hits way more often, so they'll have to replace their stuff way more often and if that comes at a higher price than everyone else, then they're getting the double-whammy when it comes to disadvantages and thus in return, the tank role will be less desirable to play for a lot of people, which is the exact opposite of what we need.

 

We need more people to play tanks. Not to scare them away.

Edited by macavity

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"

Knight

damage = average

health = above average

range = 0-3m

 

Assassin

damage = above average

health = average

range = 0-3m

 

Archer

damage = above average

health = average

range = 0-15m

needs ammo"

 

Just pointing this out "needs ammo" = no for balance.  Requiring ammo is integral to the class to start, you cannot do damage with your ranged projectile based weapon without it, it is not something you add afterwards, it's something poorly designed games take away. The next 'scaling'  to balance would seem to logically follow along the lines of Heavy armor/Chain armor/Leather armor (and yes, I know most games do not distinguish between say Assassin and Archer armor types, but that does not mean it couldn't be.)

 

Oh, and the arrow symbol, I agree, could be a placeholder image for ranged weapons & (possibly not) ammo, but I would much more likely think it would be a bow if that were the case, but again, I concede it could be a placeholder.

 

Can we stop pretending like it takes a lot of "planning" and "decision making" to buy/craft arrows? That would be neat.

It takes more than not having to plan for those, which equates to zero if you don't have to deal with them.  Could we learn some critical thinking skills?  Oh wait, you're beyond help in that category, as evidenced by every single post in every single thread you've made, period.

 

Let's give an example:

He's wrong though. Actual resource planning and decision making will still exist in the game for everything else with infinite arrows/ammo.

 

It never took any planning or decision making to buy/acquire/craft arrows/ammo. In games with limited arrows/ammo, you just stockpile a ton of them in your bank and in your inventory. Stop pretending like there's some extremely deep mechanics that you have to think about with finite arrows/ammo.

 

Having finite arrows just means that you'll be more of a liability to your group/guild in a 2 hour siege compared to non-arrow/ammo users(assuming that magic users don't require reagents, of course. They might though and this discussion is a moot point).

 

Bolded:that is a strategic choice, which you refuse to see as one.  It DOES take "planning or decision making to buy/acquire/craft arrows/ammo", is it difficult decision making most of the time, no, but it is decision making and planning. Your logic and critical thinking skills are so horrendous you don;t even recognize your own hypocracy.

 

UL/Ital: You keep alluding to this, or something akin to 'why would you take a bow class if.." ..simple answer: You wouldn't, but not for the reasons you infer, but because they are a terrible player.  If your strategic planning skills run you out of ammo before a reasonable amount of time, you're very likely a very bad player. 

 

Continuing on though, you again spew nonsense as if it were gospel in the game, but as I have, and others have, stated before, you have  never, ever, Ever, EVER been limited to just your bow/projectile based ranged weapon in any MMO...ever.  Your logic is inherently flawed, and you continue to argue points that are well refuted, because either you ignore what people post, or more likely, just don't possess reading comprehension skills.

 

I still see no reason, what-so-ever, to eliminate ammo from the category of strategy; unless it proves beyond a doubt that it is a flawed and imbalancing mechanic to such a degree that the overall class is overly burdened (taking 100% of all other factors of the class into consideration) by the ammunition.

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Ah, yet another long post filled with bold, italic and underlined text. Not even gonna read it.

Why would you start now? You ignore anything you don't agree with anyhow. You don't possess any logic, reason, or critical thinking skills, so this is no great loss.

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Wah Wah Wah, Cry Cry Cry, BS BS BS....juvenile response, juvenile response, non sequitur non sequitur...rinse and repeat nonsense

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over your whining...

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"

Knight

damage = average

health = above average

range = 0-3m

 

Assassin

damage = above average

health = average

range = 0-3m

 

Archer

damage = above average

health = average

range = 0-15m

needs ammo"

 

Just pointing this out "needs ammo" = no for balance.  Requiring ammo is integral to the class to start, you cannot do damage with your ranged projectile based weapon without it, it is not something you add afterwards, it's something poorly designed games take away. The next 'scaling'  to balance would seem to logically follow along the lines of Heavy armor/Chain armor/Leather armor (and yes, I know most games do not distinguish between say Assassin and Archer armor types, but that does not mean it couldn't be.)

 

Well I believe I was quite clear I was taking a high design standpoint on this. I even used an example to emphasize that from the standpoint of High Design there is no difference between an archer, a mage or a guy using pistol fingers to do damage. They are all basically thematic differences. 

 

Also when you design games you have to start somewhere. And games are usually developed out from generic concepts. In other words it's very unlikely that any ranged character was designed after the idea of an finite ammo system. Usually the character would come first, then the themes and systems that define him or her.

mael4.jpg

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That's a VERY dangerous road to go down and I hope that they won't do that. Melees are already at a disadvantage in a game like this that's based around sieges.

 

If tanks die more and take more hits than ranged(which will most likely happen) they take durability/decay hits way more often, so they'll have to replace their stuff way more often and if that comes at a higher price than everyone else, then they're getting the double-whammy when it comes to disadvantages and thus in return, the tank role will be less desirable to play for a lot of people, which is the exact opposite of what we need.

 

We need more people to play tanks. Not to scare them away.

So melee is at disadvantage and at the same time ranged with finite ammo are at disadvantage vs melee, so who has advantage here ? It sound like you are just whining for the sake of it.

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Well I believe I was quite clear I was taking a high design standpoint on this. I even used an example to emphasize that from the standpoint of High Design there is no difference between an archer, a mage or a guy using pistol fingers to do damage. They are all basically thematic differences. 

 

Also when you design games you have to start somewhere. And games are usually developed out from generic concepts. In other words it's very unlikely that any ranged character was designed after the idea of an finite ammo system. Usually the character would come first, then the themes and systems that define him or her.

Yes, but from a High Design standpoint, ammo would already be integrated into the ranged classes. There are monumental differences between a magic user and projectile based ranged class, which I have intentionally not brought up in this thread, as it would not be conducive to the discussion.  To lump them together is doing a great disservice to the idea you present, so I took it at face value.

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The exact same thing can be said for you.

Uh no, actually it can't. You are pretty much the only person in this thread consistently acting like a wonderful person. Though I guess it's not really acting if it comes naturally.

Officer of The BlackHand Order

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So melee is at disadvantage and at the same time ranged with finite ammo are at disadvantage vs melee, so who has advantage here ? It sound like you are just whining for the sake of it.

I never said that ranged are at a disadvantage against melee. That was someone else. I was saying ranged with finite arrows/ammo are at disadvantage compared to magic users(assuming that they don't require reagents) when it comes to resupplying your guild/group because they would need extra additional supplies in the form of arrows/ammo.

 

 

Uh no, actually it can't. You are pretty much the only person in this thread consistently acting like a wonderful person. Though I guess it's not really acting if it comes naturally.

Thanks for your input, it's greatly appreciated. Although I would probably be taking you a bit more seriously if you didn't advertise your twitter in your profile.

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Yes, but from a High Design standpoint, ammo would already be integrated into the ranged classes. There are monumental differences between a magic user and projectile based ranged class, which I have intentionally not brought up in this thread, as it would not be conducive to the discussion.  To lump them together is doing a great disservice to the idea you present, so I took it at face value.

 

No it wouldn't. I guess I will try yet again. From the viewpoint of high design a ranged character could basically be anything that can do damage at a range. At that point in the design process nothing is decided. Like I have said several times the difference between a mage and an archer is really only thematic in the sense of real design. Most games try make them further different by giving one more utility f. ex. However who gets that utility would be based around thematic design and/or designated roles. However until that role has been designated, their utulity added, or theme has been decided upon, they are basically the same.  

 

So basically when someone says: lets implement a ranged character, there is no implication of ammo involved. The first question asked would probably be. How does this effect the systems already in place and how would we balance that in comparison with the other systems. 

 

It's not lumping them together. It's just that from the viewpoint of high design I was taking, they wouldn't have gotten anything to make them different yet. 

 

It's like you think Game design takes real life as a starting point and then changes it until it becomes something creative, a game. That could be somewhat true at the concept stage, but not in the early design stages. It just doesn't make any sense. 

mael4.jpg

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There's many pros and cons to both Infinite and Finite ammo systems. 

 

We have an idea on which path we are going go down, but this is a topic we've been discussing since the early days of Crowfall's inception and one we come back to on a regular basis. Truth be told we won't have an absolute firm stance until we do extensive testing and to do that we need more of the games systems to come online. 

 

Identifying problems is easy, finding solutions that do not create other problems is significantly harder. 

 

There's a lot of scenarios that we'll try in our testing, for example to name a few: 

 

Finite ammo

Give physical ammo characters a secondary melee weapon and ability set

Infinite ammo

Infinite basic ammo with finite upgraded ammo 

Spirit Ammo (Mana dependent ammo, effectively). 

Many, many more variants on the above. 

 

Ultimately we need to discover what works best with the rest of the game we are making, which one of these gives us:

 

A) The play experience we want for those Archetypes.

D) Doesn't become an unstoppable machine on the battlefield.

C) Supports / Doesn't harm the risk-reward survival gameplay.

D) Supports / Doesn't harm the in-game economy.

E) Doesn't create bigger problems elsewhere.

 

Games typically all inevitably face this decision, some go hard in one direction and stick with it, others change their minds after launch to accommodate their current player base. 

 

We want to make sure we have enough systems online so that we can do extensive testing and not just make a call that sounds good to us on paper. 

Tully Ackland

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc. 

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

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Infinite for personal weapons (bows, guns crossbows), like others have said having to carry around 100's of arrows adds nothing to the game.

 

Although things like trebuchets etc should require ammo.

Edited by Zetki
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