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jetah

Make Arrows An Item

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I like the idea of finite ammo, so long as there are player controlled NPCs who can serve as my Page and/or Steward.  I will play an archer and believe finite ammo will add realism to this game. If I have 1 or 2 NPCs schlepping quivers to me on the battlefield, I think that adds dimension.  If my ammo bearers get wounded or killed, I will run out of ammo, or I will need to use what my fellow guild archers have in my vicinity, or I will need to draw my sword and join my mates on the front line.


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Ammo should be finite.

You need to craft arrows or cannon balls, drag them with you and think about when to shoot them.

 

Would make the game much more realistical and tactical.

As you would need supporters crafting and carrying ammo to war fields.

With supports defending them.

While Armor warrying knights, cry for repairs.

 

ahhh bliss.

 

But seriously.

To early to say anything. Will see how it plays out on Alpha and after that.

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Finite ammo

Give physical ammo characters a secondary melee weapon and ability set

Infinite ammo

Infinite basic ammo with finite upgraded ammo 

Spirit Ammo (Mana dependent ammo, effectively). 

Many, many more variants on the above. 

 

 

Spirit ammo, is that something that a Cupid shoots with ? If you get hit with a spirit arrow you don't die but fall in love and walk around heartbroken unable to fight. Sounds like something that would work well for the faction ruleset.

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If there are finite arrows, you would basically need to make all physical ranged secondary as any ranged character would run out of arrows really quickly. It would definitely put the advantage to any spellcaster who doesn't need to deal with it.

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If there are finite arrows, you would basically need to make all physical ranged secondary as any ranged character would run out of arrows really quickly. It would definitely put the advantage to any spellcaster who doesn't need to deal with it.

 

Well, no.. You're assuming things, probably based on your experience with other games. First of all we don't even know if spellcasters use mana or regeants for their spells, so you can't say spellcasters wouldn't have to deal with that. Even melee characters could have problems like rusting or dull weapons. I'm not saying I know this will be the case, it just doesn't make sense to base your opinion on other games when it comes to a game we don't know enough about.

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Now that's the Dev response I wanted to hear.  Experimentation is best.  Glad to hear you guys are going to try out all the options, this way we can play many different games in alpha.

 

Well, most content is subject to change somehow until ACE is satisfied with the results in early stages of the game.
Bow skill is almost like spell casting (both is range) - if they use reagents to cast spells.. Maybe they should use fletching to create projectiles,
but if ACE don't like the grind part of it - just remove it all including spell reagents. And mages should use some kind of staff which decay just 
like weapons.
 
It's not fun to collect arrows/reagents for (5-10 min.) PvP - if u lose some gear.. Then u need to collect arrows/reagents all over again
for PvP and it could be tedious task..
I've changed my opinion about projectiles in CF; my point is that PvP should be easy and fun to participate in.

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Amos are only put into consideration when you have a game that all use the same classes. For an example, lets say a game with only gunners then yeah otherwise it would be people spamming beams and bullets at each others. Ammos serve for a strategic and realistic purpose in those games but if you see a centaur charging at you with a giant axe. You better shoot something that's infinite LOL


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I personally would like to see finite ammo simply due to the exciting game scenarios it might create.

 

"Okay, guys, we're outnumbered, but we've got strong walls and plenty of arrows. Let's hope reinforcements arrive before we run out."

 

It also adds another element of logistics. For example, your guild has a huge stockpile of arrows/bullets at your main fortress, but your foes have been mounting raids against your outposts. You need to resupply them while you keep plenty back for defense if a raid reaches your walls. Do you evenly parcel out all the supplies or do you try to predict the foe's next strike and load up one or two outposts?

 

If we have infinite ammo, those interesting scenarios don't play out. Of course, then you might have a situation where an archer basically becomes useless when they run out, and that's not fun for the player. 

 

On the other hand, it might be possible to do both. Crows are magical so they can always use their spirit ammo to remain viable, but a really superior craftsman can produce superior arrows to the spirit version. 

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If there are finite arrows, you would basically need to make all physical ranged secondary as any ranged character would run out of arrows really quickly. It would definitely put the advantage to any spellcaster who doesn't need to deal with it.

 

Why are you guys keep telling that spellcasters don't need ammos. It isn`t so hard to imagine some kind of spell components for spells.

Another thing. Of course if the gameplay is so cartoony where you shoot 100 per second finite arrows, it would be stupid and not fun. I'm talking of a good balance where arrows does alot of damages and are something to be feared and maybe are hard to aim..etc.

Edited by Neutrinoide

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I think would really depend on one thing when all is said and done: resource management.

 

How do the skills work in this game? Are they mana/fury/some small bar that denotes how much "stuff" you have left to use?

 

That's the biggest question in my regards to Infinite/Finite ammo discussions. I think that a bar would suit this game just fine. It would give the sense that the player does have to think about what kinds of skills they will use in combat, and then the opposing player can use those strengths/weaknesses to try to get the upperhand.

 

Reminds me of the energy bars in Global Agenda. You had a magazine that was reloadable, but the ammo boiled down to the use of energy and not just an ammo pouch that drained over time until you had to resupply. This increased the fast-paced, constant push and pull that didn't require the logistics of having to back off, go get ammo, return to the edges of battle, re-evaluate or assess the situation, and then jump back in. With a bar or "energy" of some sort, this condenses it down to push/pull of combat, back off/hide, heal/rest up (which could be with or without teammates), and then push and pull back. It takes out what some would consider as unnecessary travel time or battle logistics that could be seen as necessary.

 

All in all, I think the best route (and some might think this is a cop out for me not knowing how to properly address this issue), buuuuut, the Campaign rulesets should decide :D


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I personally would like to see finite ammo simply due to the exciting game scenarios it might create.

 

"Okay, guys, we're outnumbered, but we've got strong walls and plenty of arrows. Let's hope reinforcements arrive before we run out."

 

It also adds another element of logistics. For example, your guild has a huge stockpile of arrows/bullets at your main fortress, but your foes have been mounting raids against your outposts. You need to resupply them while you keep plenty back for defense if a raid reaches your walls. Do you evenly parcel out all the supplies or do you try to predict the foe's next strike and load up one or two outposts?

 

If we have infinite ammo, those interesting scenarios don't play out. Of course, then you might have a situation where an archer basically becomes useless when they run out, and that's not fun for the player. 

 

On the other hand, it might be possible to do both. Crows are magical so they can always use their spirit ammo to remain viable, but a really superior craftsman can produce superior arrows to the spirit version. 

 

 

Well I would actually argue that both of those scenarios is just as likely to happen without a finite ammo system. We already know that ACE wants to have supplies to matter. Armors and weapons f. ex will decay and any force will need to resupply during a longer siege.


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My personal take on this would be to have a character`s carrying capacity be finite, but have the ammunition itself in it`s most basic form be infinitely available.

 

Taking arrows as an example. An archer can sit down before a battle and using Fletching, craft 100 arrows, choosing a specific type of wood for the shaft and metal for the arrowhead. These arrows could be the 'upgraded' or 'Custom' ammo Tully mentions, with their properties - fly farther, do more damage, pierce a certain type of armor etc - be dependent on the particular types and properties of the raw materials used to make them,

 

Then you could have either  A ) An infinite quiver of 'Standard Issue' arrows at your disposal or  B ) Have it that new arrows must also be crafted, in the field, but make it such that the non-upgraded arrows are absurdly easy to fabricate from raw materials literally available everywhere in the gameworld and at all times - from sticks and chopped-stones for example - so that they are essentially infinite.

 

Such a system would avoid the limiting and negative effects of a non-infinite system, but still allow for the deep gameplay and possibilities for variation opened up when you connect ammunition to crafting, available resources and skill.

Edited by Anthrage

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Infinite for personal weapons (bows, guns crossbows), like others have said having to carry around 100's of arrows adds nothing to the game.

 

Although things like trebuchets etc should require ammo.

 

Actually, having to carry ammunition adds tons to the game.  People have to resupply, which provides a market for crafters.  They have to pick their targets, instead of just endlessly spraying fire, which adds a layer of tactics.  It can even add a layer beyond that if they have ammunition carts, where people can resupply arrows (stocked there for the purpose by their guild) during breaks in a battle.  Sieges start to acquire another level of planning.

 

One of the guiding principles of the Crowfall design is player interdependence.  Designing archers to operate Diablo 3-style is a step away from that.

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I find it rather interesting that Tully touched on just about every point I've made, essentially boiling down to "It needs to fit the system."  Given the replies I received personally and the conduct of this thread, I'd highly recommend everyone take a step back and understand that there's a difference between personal preference and sound, reasoned argument that doesn't require intellectual snobbery, trollishness, and ad hominems.  Calling people carebears is not a debate and neither is gainsaying.

 

It's important to remember that we already have gear degredation.  This needs to be made in a way that as equally as possible affects all classes.  Adding on a second form of degredation for only one class or style of gameplay that only those players are burdened with absolutely must have meaning.  Given that Crowfall will be a class-based game, it is safe to assume that every class will have a primary means of dealing damage and supporting their allies.  This means melee vs range and physical vs magical.  Some may be hybrids.  Some may be purely one or the other.  If some classes are designed to use the bow itself as their primary means of combat, finite ammo risks becoming an unnecessary burden, posing a liability not only to the bowman but to his allies as he must now use precious inventory space and take an inherent incumberence penalty solely because of class choice that no other class will experience.  The balance would be to then force the same "secondary degredation" system on other class types such as reagents for magic and whetstones or repair hammers for melee (and I think we can all agree how annoying it was carrying 200 repair hammers in Oblivion).  The other option would, of course, be for ammo to be infinite and to reallocate the crafting mechanic and resource management mechanic finite can offer into another form that isn't an unnecessary burden against specific playstyles.

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There's many pros and cons to both Infinite and Finite ammo systems. 

 

We have an idea on which path we are going go down, but this is a topic we've been discussing since the early days of Crowfall's inception and one we come back to on a regular basis. Truth be told we won't have an absolute firm stance until we do extensive testing and to do that we need more of the games systems to come online. 

 

Identifying problems is easy, finding solutions that do not create other problems is significantly harder. 

 

There's a lot of scenarios that we'll try in our testing, for example to name a few: 

 

Finite ammo

Give physical ammo characters a secondary melee weapon and ability set

Infinite ammo

Infinite basic ammo with finite upgraded ammo 

Spirit Ammo (Mana dependent ammo, effectively). 

Many, many more variants on the above. 

 

Ultimately we need to discover what works best with the rest of the game we are making, which one of these gives us:

 

A) The play experience we want for those Archetypes.

D) Doesn't become an unstoppable machine on the battlefield.

C) Supports / Doesn't harm the risk-reward survival gameplay.

D) Supports / Doesn't harm the in-game economy.

E) Doesn't create bigger problems elsewhere.

 

Games typically all inevitably face this decision, some go hard in one direction and stick with it, others change their minds after launch to accommodate their current player base. 

 

We want to make sure we have enough systems online so that we can do extensive testing and not just make a call that sounds good to us on paper. 

Personally I am a fan of unlimited normal ammo, with finite upgraded ammo, ala Monster Hunter.

Sure you can poke away with your normal ammo, but what you really want to use is your upgraded ammo, that can come in all kinds of types.  Like cluster shots, poison coating, paralyze, sleep coating, fire ammo, ice ammo, etc.

Because without them your much less effective.  But your never completely out of options.  Some enemies you just don't need to waste good ammo on.

 

I think it's just a flexible system.

 

Also think about movement speed in relationship to ranged attacks.  Monster Hunter solved this issue when your charged your attacks your immobile.

You can shoot and scoot, but you do a lot less damage then if you stand and charge your attacks.

While it is fun to be darting around like a ninja with a bow/gun, ala GW2, it ends up making ranged attackers overly powerful a lot of the time.

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Deioth, I agree with some of what you're saying, but you're making a lot of assumptions about things which we know very little about. We don't know how much inventory space ammunition might take up (one at minimum) and we don't know that carrying lots of ammo would inflict any sort of "inherent encumbrance penalty." We don't even know how many spaces we're going to have in the inventory, how much each will be able to accommodate, if the weight of the items in the inventory will matter, how many items can stack, etc. 

 

These could be major issues or no issue at all. Arguing against ammunition based on these assumptions is unconvincing. 

 

But if anyone is sending you unpleasant PMs because of any stance you've taken, then, yeah, they're jerks. 

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What if it was infinite, but like with mage-food crafting, you sit around for like 3min to fill up.

 

Boom. having cake and eating it too.

 

 

What resource gathering is, is a time sink. What imo you guys are wanting is windows of vulnerability...so. "Arrows of the gods" "Requires prayers of benidiction"

 

Hell if you want them to go back to town... "Churches of the hunt" and then smaller mountain shrines along paths...differeing amounts of arrows per visit.

 

Now you have mechanics that make "go back to town" gameplay, and restocking stuff, without forcing people into content they don't want to have to participate in/farming/grinding/playing economic games for a core class resource.

Edited by Zomnivore

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I'm not prepared to read 10 pages right now.  I will say this, though: In an MMORPG, finite is stupid.

 

There was never a point in any game I've played that relied a finite ammunition resource that ever made it feel fun when you're using the resource a constant rate and as a primary means of combat.  Excepting shooter specific games, finite is a hassle.  In every MMORPG, finite systems are a pain.  Diablo 2 was finite in throw and bow and it was a huge hassle that added nothing to the game's core gameplay.  All it did was require more town visits and a break in game flow.  In Elder Scrolls, focusing bow use meant carrying tons of arrows with the only value added to finite resources being that you saved your glass and ebony and enchanted for hard fights if you remember you even are saving them yet gain no significant benefit from the use of "rare" ammo.  In a game like WoW all it did was hog up inventory space and, again, break game flow.

 

If there is going to be an intention for ammunition users to have an ammo system, then do this: Have an ammo slot that decays in durability like the bow and all other gear.  This allows you to equip more powerful ammo when possible or specialized ammo when required but doesn't make for a massive inventory or weight hog or break the flow in a way casters and melee don't suffer from.  Having an ammo slot would be a good idea from a variety and design standpoint.  Having ammunition stacks has always been a hassle.  Unless you're playing Resident Evil or a shooter, you should never have to deal with finite ammo.

 

There's a reason infinite ammo is a staple now.  It's because finite is boring and breaks gameflow.  You required thousands worth of a single ammunition type because you'd expend those thousands in barely an hour of consistent gameplay.  Since you need an infinite supply, just make it infinite.

This is your first post on this thread, back on page 10, let me re-quote the first line:

 

"I'm not prepared to read 10 pages right now.  I will say this, though: In an MMORPG, finite is stupid."

 

You start with an insult, and never waiver from that.  And suddenly you claim a high-minded ideal that you somehow have advocated for whatever system works best?  Unless you go back and edit your posts...again...you advocate infinite only, as finite is always "stupid." to you.  You should wipe that brown off your nose, because no one who has read what you've actually written would agree with what you spewed forth this BS "I find it rather interesting that Tully touched on just about every point I've made, essentially boiling down to "It needs to fit the system.""...never have you advocated that, unless it meant for infinite ammo only.

 

RabbitFly: "Well I believe I was quite clear I was taking a high design standpoint on this. I even used an example to emphasize that from the standpoint of High Design there is no difference between an archer, a mage or a guy using pistol fingers to do damage. They are all basically thematic difference"

 

You sir, were in no way clear, you immediately split melee into knight and assassin, and specifically used archer, which is nothing like a mage.  The differences are numerous (I actually started typing them out, but when I hit 15 I realized I was starting to derail the threads topic), and varied.  To give a quick illustration though, in your first break-down, it would have looked like this:

 

Knight:

Damage potential = average

Health = greater than average

 

Assassin:

Damage potential = greater than average

Health = average

 

Archer:

Damage potential = greater than average

Health = average

 

Mage:

Damage potential = greater than average

Health = below average

 

And adding ammo is not a burden, I laugh every time I read someone post that, in order to use a bow, crossbow, gun, any projectile, you NEED that projectile.  Yes, that assumption is based on our reality, and can be circumvented because this is fantasy, but it is not a 'burden', it's a reasonable expectation at worst

 

It's a terrible tragedy that other games have bred this expectation of infnite ammo as a standard, especially considering the numerous advantages 'archer'-style classes already tend to enjoy.

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I'm personally a big fan of finite ammo. It adds a complexity to a game that I personally enjoy, and takes away any feelings of being spoon-fed (which is why I hate most modern MMOs... everything is handed to you and frequently not worked for. No satisfaction in that!). 

 

One feature I enjoyed about Vanguard: Saga of Heroes during its prime was the finite ammunition. Arrows were easy to attain and occupied little space. And when you played as a ranger class, you had access to a forage ability that allowed a range-specific character to obtain supplies for higher quality arrows. Crafters could still make nice arrows, but a ranger had  the ability to make the best arrows. Seemed to make sense for a bow-intensive class. There was a high economic demand for these specialized arrows. And the fact that ammunition was finite meant that quality munitions always had demand. This benefited crafters immensely.

 

Another option that might cater to both crowds is have infinite ammunition in its basic form. Nothing special about these kinds of ammo, but it's readily available if you don't want to put the time, effort or money into it. But what if the option was still there for players to carry their own modified or crafted forms of ammunition that held stronger stats and capabilities, but in finite numbers? Sure, might take up inventory space to some extent, but you get what you pay for. For someone like me who plays a ranged class in almost every game out there, I want the option to customize my munitions however I choose. And the added element of logistics does add some level of complexion, but this is something I seek in my gaming experience.

Edited by Gadden

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