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Daddie

Crowfall meta game

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Hi.. I have been an EVE (0.0) player for years and have seen many big alliances rise and fall. An important reason was spying. Lots of players play with multiple accounts where an alt joins the enemy and relays important information. When a spy got caught he is expelled from the alliances and placed on a blacklist.

 

Back to Crowfall.. When I pick a world to start playing in, it would be an easy task to create a second account and join the enemy forces. I would be able to sabotage the enemies and relay important information. How can the group defend against such actions? Before the game starts, how does a group of players deny certain other players access to their group? And how does this group of players remove a spy from their group? 

 

Lots of fun gameplay comes from spying and sabotage but a group should have the means to remove spies otherwise it is nothing more then grieving..

Edited by Henkie

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It's part of the "Game of Thrones" emergent meta gameplay.  Equally, there are things that guilds can do in order to flush spies out and even do counter-spy operations.  It'll be a spy vs spy meta game.

 

This is something for players/guilds to do, not the developer.

Edited by Nyt

> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Spying is good.. the question I have what are your options against spies? Can you attack your own teammate because that's what the spy is according to the server. Can you kick him out of your team? What I am trying to say is that without any option for the team to remove a spy the spying/sabotaging is basically grieving.

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Spying is good.. the question I have what are your options against spies? Can you attack your own teammate because that's what the spy is according to the server. Can you kick him out of your team? What I am trying to say is that without any option for the team to remove a spy the spying/sabotaging is basically grieving.

 

Guilds will have the ability to remove members, so I don't see what the problem is.  There are options for guilds to "discover" which members are spies that don't require any in-game features which would destroy any possible spy meta game.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Guilds will have the ability to remove members, so I don't see what the problem is.  There are options for guilds to "discover" which members are spies that don't require any in-game features which would destroy any possible spy meta game.

 

You kick him out of your guild.. then what? What happens to him? He is still on your side of the team. Granted, not in your guild anymore. But he still can destroy anything you made without any option to stop him. 

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You kick him out of your guild.. then what? What happens to him? He is still on your side of the team. Granted, not in your guild anymore. But he still can destroy anything you made without any option to stop him. 

Hmm, you can kill anyone in this game.....There is not really any sides unless you play in one of the faction rulesets.  In the faction rules sets, freindly fire will be turned off so he can't destroy your stuff.  In dreg or shadows, kill him till he cries for his mommy for spying on ya.

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You kick him out of your guild.. then what? What happens to him? He is still on your side of the team. Granted, not in your guild anymore. But he still can destroy anything you made without any option to stop him. 

 

Join the shadow or the dregs (the REAL game :P), problem solved!


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The question of spying in the outer bands vs the inner bands is two completely separate problems. In the inner bands, you deguild him, kill him, and take his stuff. In the outer bands, there isn't much you can do beyond ejecting him from your guild. So at that point, the axiom that "all war is deception" comes into play; make sure that what he sees is what you want him to see.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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You kick him out of your guild.. then what? What happens to him? He is still on your side of the team. Granted, not in your guild anymore. But he still can destroy anything you made without any option to stop him. 

 

I agree that we will probably experience this eventually. Having several players using accounts to play on multiple sides of a faction war, especially in the 3 factions world band, will likely allows players to spy and sabotage with little risk to get caught and suffer a punishment.

 

On the other hand, while this player is actively playing his spy account, he's not playing on his main account, so there's already a small balancing effect. Also, as there will be players using multiple accounts on each side, the impact on the outcome of the campaign may be minor.

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Personally i dont think people should be allowed to play more than one character per campaign, there is no reason for it. If everyone can just have alts running anytime they need something it devalues the need for specific skills sets in groups cause everyone could just side run other characters.

 

But if they were allowed to have multiple characters in the same campaign, then they should have all characters faction/guild locked. Meaning what ever faction you join in the outter rings you are stuck with. And any guilds or groups you join in the inner rings automatically encompass all characters, and if you get kicked from one of those guilds then it removes all characters.

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Personally i dont think people should be allowed to play more than one character per campaign, there is no reason for it. If everyone can just have alts running anytime they need something it devalues the need for specific skills sets in groups cause everyone could just side run other characters.

 

This, this is good.

 

Spying should be a high-risk, high-reward endeavor. 

People having "sacrificial" accounts or characters takes away the risk-factor. 

 

I really like the idea of having one shot, and one shot only at getting a career choice in any given campaign right.

 

So you want to be a spy? 

Sure, but you better make sure you are doing a damn fine job at it, or risk getting blackballed by every player on the server if you get found out.

 

Of course that does not mean player characters should be worthless once uncovered as spies: But good luck dealing with the consequences: It should be up to us as to how to deal with failure at the spy-game. 

 

For example:

Do I try again with another faction, hoping they don't know me?

Or do I get relegated to guard duty on my benefactors ramparts? 

 

Conversely, factions wanting to utilize spies, should be prepared to pay copious amounts of resources to the spy-players willing to put their campaign at risk by infiltrating the other side and possibly tarnishing their reputation and credibility while at it.

 

 

In the end, having one character per campaign only makes the final outcome that much more meaningful: You entire campaign-gains hinge on getting it right.

 

Also: Immersion, 'nuff said.  


~Strategy is the art of making use of time and space.
I'm less concerned about the latter than the former: Space we can recover, lost time never.

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The question of spying in the outer bands vs the inner bands is two completely separate problems. In the inner bands, you deguild him, kill him, and take his stuff. In the outer bands, there isn't much you can do beyond ejecting him from your guild. So at that point, the axiom that "all war is deception" comes into play; make sure that what he sees is what you want him to see.

 

This. Faction Warfare in EVE is already basically like this; unless you're in a real FW corporation, you're not privy to much intel except combat in progress (and only sometimes), and even if you're a line member, you aren't privy to the bigger plans until they're already happening.

 

People will learn to handle spies, and they're not really a "fundamental" problem. If someone is putting a lot of effort into spying then it's natural that they should get something out of that, but that tends to take considerably more time and effort than just playing the game. Don't rag on spies- for every story of a successful heist or tipping point betrayal, there's a hundred or more untold stories of someone who never got the opportunity or got caught and ejected.

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Realistically, there's not much that can be done to lock a player who has multiple accounts down to one character per campaign.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Realistically, there's not much that can be done to lock a player who has multiple accounts down to one character per campaign.

 

Well, you could always do it Korea Style and require a SSN to be tied to your account. ;)

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I aint saying I don't like the spying and sabotaging.. I even like the idea.. But the affecting team should also have options to deal with a spy when he is uncovered. In EVE you can't rename your character which means when your name is linked to spying it wont be easy to use that character anymore. 

 

The thing I am the most wary about is people creating a fresh character, join a world, and start grieving.. destroying all voxel based destructable objects owned by the team he is in.

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Henkie, I'm not sure why the faction servers would allow people to destroy their own team's assets.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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This, this is good.

 

Spying should be a high-risk, high-reward endeavor. 

People having "sacrificial" accounts or characters takes away the risk-factor. 

 

I really like the idea of having one shot, and one shot only at getting a career choice in any given campaign right.

 

So you want to be a spy? 

Sure, but you better make sure you are doing a damn fine job at it, or risk getting blackballed by every player on the server if you get found out.

 

Of course that does not mean player characters should be worthless once uncovered as spies: But good luck dealing with the consequences: It should be up to us as to how to deal with failure at the spy-game. 

 

For example:

Do I try again with another faction, hoping they don't know me?

Or do I get relegated to guard duty on my benefactors ramparts? 

 

Conversely, factions wanting to utilize spies, should be prepared to pay copious amounts of resources to the spy-players willing to put their campaign at risk by infiltrating the other side and possibly tarnishing their reputation and credibility while at it.

 

 

In the end, having one character per campaign only makes the final outcome that much more meaningful: You entire campaign-gains hinge on getting it right.

 

Also: Immersion, 'nuff said.  

 

Its not even so  much the spy puts a campaign at risk, they are being told to join an enemy faction for intel to help another group win. By doing so they are not risking a campaign they are downright agreeing to lose (if they are good at their spying), so they better be makeing sure their payment is a good enough cost to compensate for the fact that they will be possibly helping another team win.

 

It also leads to a big decision by the people "hireing" the spy, cause there is no guarantee they will win, but they are gonna shell out alot of resources to have a person get them a slight edge over enemies, and this edge might not even help them. Then it becomes a cost gamble for the people hireing spies because there is no guarentee they will win, and there are possibly more than 1 enemy you need to spy on.

 

I know for a fact if i made a spy people would be paying a large cost upfront for my  services and then finish the payment after my services are completed, and alot of people hate that variable payout for things. Cause no one wants to trust random people with their precious resources, what if the spy gimps you and takes all your stuff, or gets payed more than you offer to just stop spying or even begin returning false info. There is just s much risk for the people hireing spys as it is to play one

 

 

Realistically, there's not much that can be done to lock a player who has multiple accounts down to one character per campaign.

 

If they pay the devs for additional copies i dont care. I am not against spying, i just dont like the idea of every person running an alt crafter or something and passive train it, then just jump on the same campaign as their main and craft everything or w/e else they made the alt character for. If you wanna buy 2 accounts that is literally the equivalent of haveing 1 friend play with you (aside from probably not being able to be active at the same time). So ALT accounts with alt characters is perfectly fine in my eyes. If i want my friend to main crafter to help me in campaigns i can get him to help, if i want to buy a second account and have myself be my personal crafter  there is nothing wrong with that either cause ultimately its 2 accounts grouping up to accomplish something, not just 1 account hot swapping between characters

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I do feel that there should definitely be some kind of counter-spy action, such as having a kick-out vote, forcing the player out of that particular campaign. Spying you might not be able to do much about, but trolls and people on your team who are purposefully screwing your side in a blatant manner should be kick-able out of your team if enough people acknowledge that they are indeed that sort of player.

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I do feel that there should definitely be some kind of counter-spy action, such as having a kick-out vote, forcing the player out of that particular campaign. Spying you might not be able to do much about, but trolls and people on your team who are purposefully screwing your side in a blatant manner should be kick-able out of your team if enough people acknowledge that they are indeed that sort of player.

 

I'm sure that wont be abused at all.

Brilliant idea buddy

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