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Is RNG desirable in Crowfall?

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People whining about RNG imo. don't have a full grasp of what they're saying.

 

You don't dislike RNG, you dislike a style of RNG you've encountered in the past.

 

 

There are too many factors in RNG to simply go "durr rng sucks" its like saying you dislike pie, when you actually dislike cake. They're deserts.

 

RNG is as broad as that, at the least.

Nope. I am pretty sure when people say they don't like RNG... they don't like RNG.

 

Random Number Generation was just a way to try to simulate the randomness in combat. Now there are hitboxes, no lock on targeting, and reticules. The system is archaic.

 

People that don't like RNG in combat are looking for a highly skilled based game, and RNG takes away from skill to make it chance.


PvE is like water to my whiskey. Don't water down my whiskey.- Ronald Reagan

 

Don't be a custard gonzo.- Abraham Lincoln

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People whining about RNG imo. don't have a full grasp of what they're saying.

 

You don't dislike RNG, you dislike a style of RNG you've encountered in the past.

 

 

There are too many factors in RNG to simply go "durr rng sucks" its like saying you dislike pie, when you actually dislike cake. They're deserts.

 

RNG is as broad as that, at the least.

An analogy doesn't actually validate an opinion, it's a way to describe something in a symbolic way in order to relate a subject, if your analogy is inaccurate, it's useless.

 

Random things happen even to people operating a game, they don't want the game to artificially generate more randomness.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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An analogy doesn't actually validate an opinion, it's a way to describe something in a symbolic way in order to relate a subject, if your analogy is inaccurate, it's useless.

 

Random things happen even to people operating a game, they don't want the game to artificially generate more randomness.

It's more like they remember the negative experiences with rng more than the positive ones because people love dwelling on that one time a warrior crit them for 2k, but they forget all about the times their heal crit and helped them barely survive a round of burst and slowly recover and get control of the fight. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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If people actually hated rng, they'd hate the tetris style rng of the map generating system (name escapes me). You don't intrinsically hate rng, you just hate rng in a style you've considered to represent rng.

 

The skinner box wouldn't work if people hated rng.

 

 

IN FACT

 

I think you actually deeply appreciate RNG, and just hate how its been hackily executed in the past and shoved into games lazily.

Edited by Zomnivore

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If people actually hated rng, they'd hate the tetris style rng of the map generating system. You don't intrinsically hate rng, you just hate rng in a style you've considered to represent rng.

 

The skinner box wouldn't work if people hated rng.

 

 

IN FACT

 

I think you actually deeply appreciate RNG, and just hate how its been hackily executed in the past and shoved into games lazily.

That's much better, a puzzle game like Tetris does have random challenge, but that's the whole challenge of the game reacting to random challenge, and it works well because it's a single player environment where a computer is trying to challenge a human.

 

It however sucks when it's a human trying to challenge a human and the computer starts entering in random figures, or when a game asks you to grind the same content over and over again for a random drop, instead of preparing a journey, exploration, and an organized challenge with a guaranteed reward.

 

I have graduated from the Skinner box, and many players figure out the trick and lose interest in participating in it after a certain amount of time.

 

Randomly created worlds and mob behaviors to challenge you and create content are useful, randomly generated battle and loot are just cheap ways to complicate a system which lacks depth.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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If people actually hated rng, they'd hate the tetris style rng of the map generating system (name escapes me). You don't intrinsically hate rng, you just hate rng in a style you've considered to represent rng.

 

 

 

Map generation is only RNG at the core (meaning the code to generate it). What your character stands on is not a number, it is terrain. That terrain may have been generated randomly but that doesnt mean its a number. People are useing the term RNG interchangeably with other factors of randomness (i think im even guilty of this in a few of my earlier posts) and in truth this is not the case.

 

The only possible RNG (Random number generation) in PvP combat is the damage someone deals/takes/heals/etc. The environment, how many health pots someone has, health regen, and mana regen are not random numbers, they are variables that the user has some control over, or its just static (Ie. someone who specs into health regen and gets 50 health per second, this isnt random its a set health per second that the person worked into their build). They are set number that are effected by the randomness of the players decision. If the player fights on a hill and they let obiwan take the high ground, that isnt a random event. If i have 10 health pots and you have 30 its not random either. If i smack you 5 times and deal [30,37,21,48,52] thats RNG.

Edited by ShadowwBoi13

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What I'm saying is you like variance, you just don't know that you like variance.

 

You're not saying anything that qualitatively changes my point.

 

You like a style of variance, in a setting, that you know you like, you dislike a style of variance in a setting you know you dislike variance, but there are different styles that can fit in those settings...that you might like. You don't know, I don't know, its why there's got to be a respect for those potential opportunities.

 

Disrespecting those opportunities is basically giving up a ton of value that you can gain, from an undiscovered style of variance you might like a lot.

 

true rng, fake rng, adjusted rng, to me its all in the same genre.

Edited by Zomnivore

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Not really, while you make a really great point for RNG out of context, that's clearly not what anyone here was talking about.

 

If I say killing is bad, that doesn't mean I disapprove of self defense or war on some sort of generalized out of context principle. Even if I don't describe it expressly, I'm naturally referring to murder, not all forms of killing or fantasy imitating killing and every unreasonable context. It doesn't make my opinion any less practical because I didn't do a dissertation qualifying the exact meaning either. Any practical person is going to apply the statement to the proper context.

 

The same is evident of this subject. Every person here concerned about RNG is referring to statistical damage variation, or in a few cases random loot tables. Bringing up every out of context exception which your fully aware of just to challenge the sincerity of the collective disapproval of RNG doesn't in fact counteract anything stated.

 

Your ultimately just tasking us to be more specific and qualify our preference, of which the later half has been done thoroughly. Attempting to discard all the arguments and affirmations given by applying them to the wrong context is both crafty yet ingenuine. As cunning as it is, it has zero impact on the appropriate context and subject actually being discussed.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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That seems pretty dumb.

 

So you know exactly how the feature would be implemented in this game?

 

Everyone's to assume it means crit, or the exact same iteration of combat we've seen from a previous game, when they're building a new combat system?

 

I dunno.

 

I think thats a jump cut to a different position.

 

 

RNG in context of combat, is varied as all hell. random number generation for damage isn't the only way random number generation can affect combat.

 

You can go deeper. Like randomly selecting a body part to hit. etc. random things that apply rng, without randomly selecting damage directly.

 

The context for rng to exist in the game is massive, and honestly diffusing that seems like a red herring to safe face.

 

Just take the knee.

 

 

*

For a different perspective on rng, think of movement and how movement systems can affect cones of fire and bullet placement for guns in fps. Rainbowsix comes to mind...its just another system that can create RNG, and use it in a way that feels well gated, and lends itself to the experience.

Edited by Zomnivore

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If it's completely luck based, I'm actually fine with it. As long as it's not some type of "I can train up my "lucky percentage" and it will happen more likely. If it's in the game as a backup for all archetypes, of equal percentage, I'm fine. I'm fine losing a keep to a centaur from getting kicked, if that same luck he got, I used to steal a ton of gold from some bandits earlier in the month. 

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I think this RNG is ok because it isn't unavoidable and it is conditional. For instance, you have to hit a blocking knight to trigger the knockdown. You have to hit the centaur from behind if you wanna be kicked. You have to be hit by the Confessor's fire to give them mana. At least it isn't completely unexpected or game changing unless you're getting knocked over and kicked over and over again, at which point... maybe you should stop attacking like that?

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TL;DR:

I definitely feel that crowfall's design should be based around the concept that there will never be rng forced into mechanics. Crits should be based on conditions like backstabbing or hitting someone while they're vulnerable... it should be about tactics, counterplay, and mind games.. there's no reason for rng when you have deep mechanics.

 

 

Games that have deterministic outcomes can become predictable. Tic-tac-toe is an example of a game where the outcome is trivially predictable. There are 3 major ways that I'm aware of to change this predictability:

 

1) Add RNG: this doesn't add any skill, but it makes the game less predictable. You won't be able to be 100% confident about what is going to happen because some of the elements are random. Many games use this solution, it's easy to think of examples.

 

2) Use chaos: Basically, make the decision tree so large and complex that it's impossible for a human to find their way through it. This is how Chess and the Japanese game Go work. If you made an extremely large version of tic-tac-toe, it could potentially work similarly.

 

My favorite:

3) Use Simultaneous Actions/Prediction: This uses the idea of playing against your opponent's mind to reduce certainty. You can't KNOW for sure what the other player is going to do.. but you can predict them based on their behavior as the fight progresses. This works especially well when the fights aren't ended too quickly and when there's enough depth to the mechanics of a 1vs1 fight that your personality/behaviors can actually shape the way you play. You can have a plan.. a strategy.. and the opponent can try to figure out what it is and counter it.. and you can recognize this and counter that counter... This creates a ton of spice and replayability with out using any forced randomness.

 

This is how fighting works between evenly skilled fighters in real life. It's also out fighting games like streetfighter work... and how my favorite game BattleCon works... It's how dueling in Starsiege: Tribes works.

 

This is what I want Crowfall to feel like..

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I just don't see why the randomness has any value in the game at all.

 

The PvP in Dark Souls is AMAZING. Easily the best melee combat PvP experience I've ever had.

 

There is absolutely no intentional RNG built into the systems in dks1 and dks2 (except for the rng crit gauntlets which are game breaking... because they have rng).

 

You don't need RNG to have spicy combat. If the mechanics have good counterplay and depth, then you can have very enjoyable gameplay based around tactics and mind gaming. You don't need to randomly have things happen for them to be interesting.

 

If you have two people dueling in a game, and they both know exactly how many hits it takes to defeat each other, it doesn't make the game uninteresting. Look at fighting games like BlazBlue, for example. Those games have EXTREMELY spicy gameplay. Look at super smash brothers (with items turned off), there's little/no randomness in the mechanics there. Those games are extremely fun and enjoyable. They don't need randomness.. they have depth and counterplay.

 

 

CS:GO was brought up a few times... the reason that game would feel dry and boring with out random spread on shots (not that I think the random spread on shots actually makes the game fun enough for me to play it) is due to the fact that all the weapons are HITSCAN and the game has an overall extremely low time to kill. This makes it so that there's very little counterplay in a 1vs1. It's all about who clicks the other's head more/faster.

 

If you look at Starsiege: Tribes, all but one of the guns in that have no randomness. In fact, the MAIN weapon in that game is the Spinfusor. It fires an explosive disc that can travel very long distances.. it's effectively like a rocket launcher of sorts... the projectiles move quite slowly though... and the players have a lot of mobility to allow them to juke and evade. This creates a massively deep set of mechanics for dueling with TONS of counterplay and "spice" with zero rng.

 

The one gun in Tribes that does have randomness is the chaingun... and the spread on that might actually be preset, I don't remember.. but it's bullet spread covers a large area, it's meant to be used only at very close range and the rng in it's application is actually effectively non-existent. The spread acts more as a visual thing rather than actually making a significant difference in the gameplay.

Edited by Eluem

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RNG in crafting, no.

RNG in combat, hell no.

 

Necro thread is necro.

 

I don't really think this constitutes a necro.

 

 

Isn't a necropost required to not contribute anything? I feel that my delving into the inner workings of game mechanics and the purpose of rng and how it influences the way games are played added something that I didn't see in the thread, unless I missed it. Also, the thread isn't that old... sure it's a couple months late.. but it's not like years or anything.

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I don't really think this constitutes a necro.

 

 

Isn't a necropost required to not contribute anything? I feel that my delving into the inner workings of game mechanics and the purpose of rng and how it influences the way games are played added something that I didn't see in the thread, unless I missed it. Also, the thread isn't that old... sure it's a couple months late.. but it's not like years or anything.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/necro-posting

 

Necro posting, refers to the act of posting in a thread, or replying to a topic, that has been inactive for a long period of time. The word “necroposting” is a portmanteau of the words Necro, a latin word meaning deceased, and Posting. Necroposting is often discouraged on many sites.

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http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/necro-posting

 

Necro posting, refers to the act of posting in a thread, or replying to a topic, that has been inactive for a long period of time. The word “necroposting” is a portmanteau of the words Necro, a latin word meaning deceased, and Posting. Necroposting is often discouraged on many sites.

 

I don't want to go off topic about this any further, but that definition is incomplete.. and if you look into it more different people include or ignore the part of the definition that requires the post to be valueless for it to be considered a necro.

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The way you prevent rare items is by making them hard to get and by making the resources take time to gather, not with RNG. I've had enough of RNG crafting in Archeage where 3/10 tries of making a piece of armour will actually work. It's a terrible concept. 

 

Yes they are trivial and yea it's mainly a pvp game, but there are still plenty of pve aspects (crafting, training skills, killing (not farming) monsters) in the game to make it not 100% pvp. I feel those that keep saying it's solely pvp will be slightly disappointed by release. 

AA made RNG a nightmare for crafting, it was rediculous.  "Well controlled" RNG in both crafting and combat is fine...  crit chance is RNG and "magic" weapon proc is RNG, hit/miss should be skill and not RNG and neither should skill damage beyond crit chance.  In crafting there should be some RNG for tier outcomes based first on material tier and crafter skill level...  The highest tier gear should be VERY VERY rare made only by a TOP skill crafter using the very top tier materials and still needing a very lucky RNG to get that absolute best result...   I do not want to see top gear in this game before the first year of play is complete, that is how rare it should be...  and it will still decay and break so will the cost be worth it?  sure...   it is top tier!

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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 "Well controlled" RNG in both crafting and combat is fine...  crit chance is RNG and "magic" weapon proc is RNG, hit/miss should be skill and not RNG and neither should skill damage beyond crit chance.

I have to agree here.  Can't say I want any elements of RnG outside of that in combat.  Not sure if I want it in crafting or not....probably not.

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