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Current Stretch Goal needs to change

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Most of that doesn't really matter, what's important is that ACE needs more money to produce the game, and foreign distributors will pay for rights to distribute. Hell they'll pay just for the right to make the first offer.

 

Trying to detail every possible qualm to subtract from the inevitable isn't really productive. Some things aren't up for negotiation. If your really looking to make a contribution, the first step is identifying what's actually possible.

 

Being honest with yourself, is this a possibility? Or are you just debating this on principle?


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I got to agree with OP here. I'm an American with Thai/Japanese/Chinese heritage (yes, I'm a mutt...not even going to go into my European roots...'Murica all the way!!) and have spent a lot of time in Thailand and in Japan, with many friends in South Korea. And frankly, (speaking on my experiences overseas and with friends and relatives) it's a very different culture.

 

I can go really in-depth and detailed about the differences between them (the primary differences are: appreciation for animation/thematic styles, appreciation for group experiences vs solo experiences, appreciation for storytelling format, appreciation for role of PvP, and appreciation for open/emergent gameplay), but frankly, kind of a waste of time. TBH, OP kind of nailed it all, anyone else who really argues otherwise is kidding themselves (trust me, I've played with a lot of friends in both environments). But that's not the argument: it's whether or not it's monetarily impacting enough to either pursue or potentially derail development.

 

In any case, it's not like ACE can back out now. No matter whether you think it's a good or bad move, backing out now would undoubtedly be a worse move, both for PR and in seeking Asian markets in the future. Personally, in my (very NON-expert) opinion, I think trying to cash in on-Asian markets now isn't the best idea. Based on CF's vision, I can already tell that this is a game that would appeal to a very niche market. I know that CF is already very much a niche game, but it's a much slimmer number there. CF doesn't offer many of the most common staples of what is considered an RPG in Eastern markets, and many of these additions would very much go against ACE visions and styles, while also featuring mechanics that have been known to hard to sell in Asian markets. Put all together and this makes for the very real chance that an Asian publisher would make demands or curb certain features to appeal more to their markets (they have their own constituency to think about, which will always trump vision to them), which I would vehemently protest (it always starts with the wardrobe and mobs...then we see the "sexy ninja class" that also happens to be insanely offensive).

 

Those are the negatives, now here is the bright side: simply pitching this IP for Asian markets could very well net in some cash flow to ACE for development out of interest or speculation, which is always a good thing. Plus more markets means more potential revenue for new archetypes, updates, etc, while also spreading word about the game. And who knows, CF could be a huge hit in Asian markets (I'm doubtful though...CF is a very different game in the West, it's going to be even more so in the Asian markets.)

 

Personally, in my (very NON-expert) opinion, I think trying for Asian markets at this stage might not be the best stretch goal at this stage in development, given the climate and cultures of those markets. I can see why they're trying, but frankly, pitching the idea post launch and gauging the demand and interest in such a game in the markets from launch reactions might have paid bigger dividends in the long run, and could have helped to strategize how to pitch the game to those markets in the future, without opening themselves to criticism or vulnerable to market interests intruding on their vision. I still think that from a Asian market standpoint, I can see why they'd think it would be a good idea, but unrealistically optimistic, as there are just too many fundamentals about CF's vision that conflict with the gaming culture in Asian markets. There is a market for a CF and SWG-like games in Asia, but it would be a very niche product.

 

You have to remember that they'll also be competing with other big 2016 Asian MMO releases, like Bless, Lost Ark, and the big one, Black Desert, all of which are designed to appeal to an Eastern audience (both mechanically and...aesthetically...*blegh*), while Crowfall has (admirably) refused to back down from it's vision and make concessions to compromise their integrity. That's my two cents on the topic, both as an American and Asian gamer.

Edited by RKNM

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I got to agree with OP here. I'm an American with Thai/Japanese/Chinese heritage (yes, I'm a mutt...not even going to go into my European roots...'Murica all the way!!) and have spent a lot of time in Thailand and in Japan, with many friends in South Korea. And frankly, (speaking on my experiences overseas and with friends and relatives) it's a very different culture.

 

I can go really in-depth and detailed about the differences between them (the primary differences are: appreciation for animation/thematic styles, appreciation for group experiences vs solo experiences, appreciation for storytelling format, appreciation for role of PvP, and appreciation for open/emergent gameplay), but frankly, kind of a waste of time. TBH, OP kind of nailed it all, anyone else who really argues otherwise is kidding themselves (trust me, I've played with a lot of friends in both environments). But that's not the argument: it's whether or not it's monetarily impacting enough to either pursue or potentially derail development.

 

In any case, it's not like ACE can back out now. No matter whether you think it's a good or bad move, backing out now would undoubtedly be a worse move, both for PR and in seeking Asian markets in the future. Personally, in my (very NON-expert) opinion, I think trying to cash in on-Asian markets now isn't the best idea. Based on CF's vision, I can already tell that this is a game that would appeal to a very niche market. I know that CF is already very much a niche game, but it's a much slimmer number there. CF doesn't offer many of the most common staples of what is considered an RPG in Eastern markets, and many of these additions would very much go against ACE visions and styles, while also featuring mechanics that have been known to hard to sell in Asian markets. Put all together and this makes for the very real chance that an Asian publisher would make demands or curb certain features to appeal more to their markets (they have their own constituency to think about, which will always trump vision to them), which I would vehemently protest (it always starts with the wardrobe and mobs...then we see the "sexy ninja class" that also happens to be insanely offensive).

 

Those are the negatives, now here is the bright side: simply pitching this IP for Asian markets could very well net in some cash flow to ACE for development out of interest or speculation, which is always a good thing. Plus more markets means more potential revenue for new archetypes, updates, etc, while also spreading word about the game. And who knows, CF could be a huge hit in Asian markets (I'm doubtful though...CF is a very different game in the West, it's going to be even more so in the Asian markets.)

 

Personally, in my (very NON-expert) opinion, I think trying for Asian markets at this stage might not be the best stretch goal at this stage in development, given the climate and cultures of those markets. I can see why they're trying, but frankly, pitching the idea post launch and gauging the demand and interest in such a game in the markets from launch reactions might have paid bigger dividends in the long run, and could have helped to strategize how to pitch the game to those markets in the future, without opening themselves to criticism or vulnerable to market interests intruding on their vision. I still think that from a Asian market standpoint, I can see why they'd think it would be a good idea, but unrealistically optimistic, as there are just too many fundamentals about CF's vision that conflict with the gaming culture in Asian markets. There is a market for a CF and SWG-like games in Asia, but it would be a very niche product.

 

You have to remember that they'll also be competing with other big 2016 Asian MMO releases, like Bless, Lost Ark, and the big one, Black Desert, all of which are designed to appeal to an Eastern audience (both mechanically and...aesthetically...*blegh*), while Crowfall has (admirably) refused to back down from it's vision and make concessions to compromise their integrity. That's my two cents on the topic, both as an American and Asian gamer.

 

Interesting, as someone who has spent a lot of time in both worlds my experiences are completely different and somewhat mirror the competitive gaming scene in general.  Asian markets seem very dedicated to pvp and they practice very hard to try and best each other... it's a much more casual endeavor on average within western audiences.  Their games in general are more punishing as well.  Significantly harder and/or more tedious on average.  The competitive pvp games that both markets really overlap on are generally dominated by the asian regions.  In LoL 80-90% of the top teams are from china/korea with the best western one probably placing somewhere near 11th in the entire world.  In sc2 it's closer to the top 95% being from asian regions. 

 

To me it is silly to to think asians aren't very serious about pvp, korea is afterall the mecca of esports, teaching the rest of the world how to create a professional scene with real infrastructure.  They've also shown their passion for the old pvp designs with how popular lineage still is (generates 3-5x more revenue than gw2 does each quarter across the world).  With china there are so many gamers spread out between so many games that we've never even heard of but we can see from their esports presence as well as their participation and dominance at times in shadowbane that there's definitely a market there.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Interesting, as someone who has spent a lot of time in both worlds my experiences are completely different and somewhat mirror the competitive gaming scene in general.  Asian markets seem very dedicated to pvp and they practice very hard to try and best each other... it's a much more casual endeavor on average within western audiences.  Their games in general are more punishing as well.  Significantly harder and/or more tedious on average.  The competitive pvp games that both markets really overlap on are generally dominated by the asian regions.  In LoL 80-90% of the top teams are from china/korea with the best western one probably placing somewhere near 11th in the entire world.  In sc2 it's closer to the top 95% being from asian regions. 

 

To me it is silly to to think asians aren't very serious about pvp, korea is afterall the mecca of esports, teaching the rest of the world how to create a professional scene with real infrastructure.  They've also shown their passion for the old pvp designs with how popular lineage still is (generates 3-5x more revenue than gw2 does each quarter across the world).  With china there are so many gamers spread out between so many games that we've never even heard of but we can see from their esports presence as well as their participation and dominance at times in shadowbane that there's definitely a market there.

the point buddy is there are different types of PvP. LoL is very different than Crowfall. StarCraft is a PvP game... but very different other than resource management. They like a different type of PvP than crowfall is presenting. it would be better for Artcraft to wait a bit.

 

I never had an experience with Shadowbane... but could you say there was a dominance there because no one was awake to defend?

Lineage is a Korean MMO... it isn't a western game. So the point is that a western game like crowfall will have a very hard time getting into that market.


PvE is like water to my whiskey. Don't water down my whiskey.- Ronald Reagan

 

Don't be a custard gonzo.- Abraham Lincoln

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the point buddy is there are different types of PvP. LoL is very different than Crowfall. StarCraft is a PvP game... but very different other than resource management. They like a different type of PvP than crowfall is presenting. it would be better for Artcraft to wait a bit.

 

Really?  What about all the chinese people that enjoyed shadowbane?   What about the fact that asian markets offer more pvp focused mmorpgs than the western ones currently do?  You seem to just want to ignore that stuff...

 

I never had an experience with Shadowbane... but could you say there was a dominance there because no one was awake to defend?

Lineage is a Korean MMO... it isn't a western game. So the point is that a western game like crowfall will have a very hard time getting into that market.

 

Seems like you are just taking wild stabs in the dark guessing at things that might support your claims...

 

We've seen western games make it across markets before.. LoL is a western game, Starcraft series all western, world of warcraft western... dota2 is western.... You have no ground to stand on... big pvp games with a solid foundation are popular everywhere, because guess what, no matter which region you play in there are people that want to show dominance over others in pvp. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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the point buddy is there are different types of PvP. LoL is very different than Crowfall. StarCraft is a PvP game... but very different other than resource management. They like a different type of PvP than crowfall is presenting. it would be better for Artcraft to wait a bit.

 

Really?  What about all the chinese people that enjoyed shadowbane?   What about the fact that asian markets offer more pvp focused mmorpgs than the western ones currently do?  You seem to just want to ignore that stuff...

 

I never had an experience with Shadowbane... but could you say there was a dominance there because no one was awake to defend?

Lineage is a Korean MMO... it isn't a western game. So the point is that a western game like crowfall will have a very hard time getting into that market.

 

Seems like you are just taking wild stabs in the dark guessing at things that might support your claims...

 

We've seen western games make it across markets before.. LoL is a western game, Starcraft series all western, world of warcraft western... dota2 is western.... You have no ground to stand on... big pvp games with a solid foundation are popular everywhere, because guess what, no matter which region you play in there are people that want to show dominance over others in pvp. 

You still don't see what I am saying... every game you mention is inherently different than what crowfall is presenting. Now you are just showing ignorance because you keep repeating the same thing. Enough with you.


PvE is like water to my whiskey. Don't water down my whiskey.- Ronald Reagan

 

Don't be a custard gonzo.- Abraham Lincoln

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the point buddy is there are different types of PvP. LoL is very different than Crowfall. StarCraft is a PvP game... but very different other than resource management. They like a different type of PvP than crowfall is presenting. it would be better for Artcraft to wait a bit.

 

Really?  What about all the chinese people that enjoyed shadowbane?   What about the fact that asian markets offer more pvp focused mmorpgs than the western ones currently do?  You seem to just want to ignore that stuff...

 

I never had an experience with Shadowbane... but could you say there was a dominance there because no one was awake to defend?

Lineage is a Korean MMO... it isn't a western game. So the point is that a western game like crowfall will have a very hard time getting into that market.

 

Seems like you are just taking wild stabs in the dark guessing at things that might support your claims...

 

We've seen western games make it across markets before.. LoL is a western game, Starcraft series all western, world of warcraft western... dota2 is western.... You have no ground to stand on... big pvp games with a solid foundation are popular everywhere, because guess what, no matter which region you play in there are people that want to show dominance over others in pvp. 

You still don't see what I am saying... every game you mention is inherently different than what crowfall is presenting. Now you are just showing ignorance because you keep repeating the same thing. Enough with you.

 

This is just a weak argument you are presenting because using that logic it's not wise to market crowfall anywhere because every game in the mmorpg industry is different than what crowfall is presenting right now. 

 

You've tried to present an argument that the current stretch goal is premature for asian markets... we've seen that asian markets love pvp, we've seen that they love mmorpgs, we've seen that they love pvp in mmorpgs, we've seen this stretch goal filling up faster on average despite there being slightly less incentives now with some of the promotions expiring. 

 

We've seen that in the most competitive pvp environments asians do quite well... we've seen that on average big budget mmorpgs these days have more pvp focus in eastern produced games than western ones....

 

You've tried to build an argument on anime, call of duty black ops sales in japan, who watches the walking dead, etc... none of it is relevant...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Good points.  Also of note is that asian markets dramatically favor consoles over PC games.   If Crowfall runs on the steam machines, that might provide at least some advantage for it in those markets.  I am just theory crafting or wishful thinking, but I am at least hoping the steam machine will bridge the PC and console worlds in a good way.


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This is just a weak argument you are presenting because using that logic it's not wise to market crowfall anywhere because every game in the mmorpg industry is different than what crowfall is presenting right now. 

 

You've tried to present an argument that the current stretch goal is premature for asian markets... we've seen that asian markets love pvp, we've seen that they love mmorpgs, we've seen that they love pvp in mmorpgs, we've seen this stretch goal filling up faster on average despite there being slightly less incentives now with some of the promotions expiring. 

 

We've seen that in the most competitive pvp environments asians do quite well... we've seen that on average big budget mmorpgs these days have more pvp focus in eastern produced games than western ones....

 

You've tried to build an argument on anime, call of duty black ops sales in japan, who watches the walking dead, etc... none of it is relevant...

Only you have bro. You make it sound like you are speaking for all of Asia. Stop using we and use I because I cannot follow your logic as you look at it from a very basic viewpoint without all the details. You ignore the details.

 

I explained why those were picked because they represent aspects of Crowfall.


PvE is like water to my whiskey. Don't water down my whiskey.- Ronald Reagan

 

Don't be a custard gonzo.- Abraham Lincoln

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Only you have bro. You make it sound like you are speaking for all of Asia. Stop using we and use I because I cannot follow your logic as you look at it from a very basic viewpoint without all the details. You ignore the details.

 

I explained why those were picked because they represent aspects of Crowfall.

And I explained why they are weak, not only are you honing in on data from japan,, a region well known for its insulated gaming with only any real pvp presence within the fighting game genre and with a population less than 10% of the biggest asian region.... you are focusing in on things like a console fps, when if we look at a pc fps (crossfire) we can see that it raised well near 1billion dollars in revenue as a primarily asian fps in 2014, an anime plot as if that speaks towards some special trend (that's like me saying because there are big bad villains in mmorpg themed anime they must have some really hardcore pvpers there) and an english zombie tv show....  These are very weak and farfetched attempts to find some sorta correlation. 

 

Let's look at things that are much more relevant... Do asians play pvp games?  Do they spend time in games with harsh consequences?  Do they play mmorpgs?  All of that is infinitely more relevant than some mmorpg themed anime show... 

 

To me it's absolutely silly to assume the asian market isn't worth it right now... they have a larger population of gamers than NA, they on average play more pvp oriented games, and specifically within the realm of mmorpgs the games being made there on average have more pvp. 

 

Finally, the spiritual predecessor to this game drew healthy interest from china before...

 

All of this of course being information you can research online... we aren't even talking about actually having experience playing in asian regions for their games... and anyone that has spent any significant time playing on asian region servers for pvp games, knows their approach is many times over more hardcore than western servers on average... they like to grind harder, they like to practice harder, they like to dry run their executes, and they treat it all like a science. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Interesting, as someone who has spent a lot of time in both worlds my experiences are completely different and somewhat mirror the competitive gaming scene in general.  Asian markets seem very dedicated to pvp and they practice very hard to try and best each other... it's a much more casual endeavor on average within western audiences.  Their games in general are more punishing as well.  Significantly harder and/or more tedious on average.  The competitive pvp games that both markets really overlap on are generally dominated by the asian regions.  In LoL 80-90% of the top teams are from china/korea with the best western one probably placing somewhere near 11th in the entire world.  In sc2 it's closer to the top 95% being from asian regions. 

 

To me it is silly to to think asians aren't very serious about pvp, korea is afterall the mecca of esports, teaching the rest of the world how to create a professional scene with real infrastructure.  They've also shown their passion for the old pvp designs with how popular lineage still is (generates 3-5x more revenue than gw2 does each quarter across the world).  With china there are so many gamers spread out between so many games that we've never even heard of but we can see from their esports presence as well as their participation and dominance at times in shadowbane that there's definitely a market there.

 

Like I said, it's the exception not the rule. Particularly in Japan, where those types of gamers are labeled otaku (contrary to western beliefs, this is not a compliment...more like calling someone a sick obsessive...), while gaming in Japan and Thailand are viewed as more recreational hobbies than hardcore competitive environments, done to pass time and enjoy themselves. Do competitive environments exist: Yes. Are they as popular or organized: Not really, no. In Korea, I experienced that they did take gaming more seriously, but even then, it was more about grinding to me (if you think that grinding=hardcore/difficullty as many of my friends did, we are not going to see eye to eye...and that is a trend in a lot of Korean RPGs) at a more leisurely pace and enjoying short breaks of intense and competitive PvP matches (they were pretty good).

 

Frankly, I think you're getting your impressions from how much South Korea puts into organizing these events. US and EU have these events too (Look at the DOTA2 scene...$17 mil, and its in Seattle...and I haven't even heard about it till now!!!), the difference is that it's just not as publicized or noteworthy in western media scope or organization scale, which will fixate on the realm of physical sports first before even thinking about e-sports (which I really have no issues with...that it's an e-"sport" is still a little disconcerting to me). In Korea, these events are much more publicized and focused on due to their culture (...I feel we're hiding behind this word too much...) and availability of recreational activities and outlets. Think you're harping on this a little much, but the "e-sport" scene isn't exclusive to the Korean market, in fact, not sure they even top it. It just happens to get more coverage and is better organized.

 

Also, do remember that when the Souls Seris (one of the most critically acclaimed gaming experiences of all time (and a personal favorite of mine)) was first released, it was actually panned in Eastern markets and universally acclaimed in Western markets. In the west, the game was a runaway success, while in eastern markets it had a much more gradual rise. And this in part was due to Miyazaki figuring out the formula of the differences between western gaming values and eastern gaming values. So my point is that its hard to say what will be successful where, but there are trends and styles that we can extrapolate to make *predictions.

Edited by RKNM

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Like I said, it's the exception not the rule. Particularly in Japan, where those types of gamers are labeled otaku (contrary to western beliefs, this is not a compliment...more like calling someone a sick obsessive...), while gaming in Japan and Thailand are viewed as more recreational hobbies than hardcore competitive environments, done to pass time and enjoy themselves. Do competitive environments exist: Yes. Are they as popular or organized: Not really, no. In Korea, I experienced that they did take gaming more seriously, but even then, it was more about grinding to me (if you think that grinding=hardcore/difficullty as many of my friends did, we are not going to see eye to eye...and that is a trend in a lot of Korean RPGs) at a more leisurely pace and enjoying short breaks of intense and competitive PvP matches (they were pretty good).

 

Frankly, I think you're getting your impressions from how much South Korea puts into organizing these events. US and EU have these events too (Look at the DOTA2 scene...$17 mil, and its in Seattle...and I haven't even heard about it till now!!!), the difference is that it's just not as publicized or noteworthy in western media scope or organization scale, which will fixate on the realm of physical sports first before even thinking about e-sports (which I really have no issues with...that it's an e-"sport" is still a little disconcerting to me). In Korea, these events are much more publicized and focused on due to their culture (...I feel we're hiding behind this word too much...) and availability of recreational activities and outlets. Think you're harping on this a little much, but the "e-sport" scene isn't exclusive to the Korean market, in fact, not sure they even top it. It just happens to get more coverage and is better organized.

 

What are you talking about?  Esports articles are making their way into a lot of major publications, interviews are being done on espn, they are selling out sports arenas.... Perhaps you may not follow the proper channels that many other gamers do or something so it seems more distant to you than it actually is? 

 

Korea developed the infrastructure first, but esports is growing globally and is getting pretty big in NA as well.   I don't think i've said anywhere that it is exclusive to the korean market, what i am talking about is their dedication to global esports... the games that china and korea do play, they are generally at the top of, by a large marging, compared to western regions...

 

Topping it in what way?  Korea tops esports in infrastructure, they were the first to offer steady salaries, create true professionals with professional licenses, bring top quality production value and make gaming more noticed in the culture in general... people don't need to love esports, but when you have broodwar matches airing on tv channels dedicated to it... it doesn't seem so foreign and strange. 

 

Anyway i'm not saying esports are exclusive to asia, i'd never say that, but it's huge over there, china and korea represent the most dominant regions with the best players from the bottom to the top.

 

Also, do remember that when the Souls Seris (one of the most critically acclaimed gaming experiences of all time (and a personal favorite of mine)) was first released, it was actually panned in Eastern markets and universally acclaimed in Western markets. In the west, the game was a runaway success, while in eastern markets it had a much more gradual rise. And this in part was due to Miyazaki figuring out the formula of the differences between western gaming values and eastern gaming values. So my point is that its hard to say what will be successful where, but there are trends and styles that we can extrapolate to make *predictions.

 

On average western gamers and eastern gamers have different ways they enjoy playing games... but games of real consequence and social impact are closer in spirit to the things coming out of asia, than the wow clones coming out of the west...

 

Sure they also have different tastes in art style and what not, but i've never heard of someone seeking challenging pvp worrying about art styles or how well-dressed characters are. 

 

Predictions are great if you put things into proper context... which means developing a good feel for where the gaming industry is at, and what gamers are all about... like anything there will be countless opinions on what means what... some people have no idea what they are talking about, others are very experienced and have a good feel. 

 

In regards to crowfall and asian markets... it's been said many times already... look at what kinda mmorpgs come out in each region... which ones are presently more pvp oriented... obviously if thats what devs are making in those regions they think there is a demand for it...

 

We can look at the absolute most casual mmorpg players, and we basically have wow players... well they aren't really going to get much out of crowfall because it doesn't have much pve and the themepark elements aren't really the main purpose of the game.  We can look at the absolute most competitive pvpers in each region and see that asia has a much larger population of world class pvpers... We can look at what kinda system it takes to breed that level of skill and see that from absolute newb to top pro every step of the way the eastern market is usually stronger in competitive pvp games. 

 

So it's like where is the real evidence that somehow it isn't a good idea to prepare this game for asian markets...

 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I'd like to avoid topic of people from Asia, and don't judge/rate them.

 

Crowfall has enough goal to do at the moment.

They want more money, to create the game quicker and earn some some customers/members.

"Great funding part" is over, It's time to work hard.

 

After reaching goal of japans, there will be more cool goals, just brace yourselves.


Nice to eat You.

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Like I said, it's the exception not the rule. Particularly in Japan, where those types of gamers are labeled otaku (contrary to western beliefs, this is not a compliment...more like calling someone a sick obsessive...), while gaming in Japan and Thailand are viewed as more recreational hobbies than hardcore competitive environments, done to pass time and enjoy themselves. Do competitive environments exist: Yes. Are they as popular or organized: Not really, no. In Korea, I experienced that they did take gaming more seriously, but even then, it was more about grinding to me (if you think that grinding=hardcore/difficullty as many of my friends did, we are not going to see eye to eye...and that is a trend in a lot of Korean RPGs) at a more leisurely pace and enjoying short breaks of intense and competitive PvP matches (they were pretty good).

 

Frankly, I think you're getting your impressions from how much South Korea puts into organizing these events. US and EU have these events too (Look at the DOTA2 scene...$17 mil, and its in Seattle...and I haven't even heard about it till now!!!), the difference is that it's just not as publicized or noteworthy in western media scope or organization scale, which will fixate on the realm of physical sports first before even thinking about e-sports (which I really have no issues with...that it's an e-"sport" is still a little disconcerting to me). In Korea, these events are much more publicized and focused on due to their culture (...I feel we're hiding behind this word too much...) and availability of recreational activities and outlets. Think you're harping on this a little much, but the "e-sport" scene isn't exclusive to the Korean market, in fact, not sure they even top it. It just happens to get more coverage and is better organized.

 

What are you talking about?  Esports articles are making their way into a lot of major publications, interviews are being done on espn, they are selling out sports arenas.... Perhaps you may not follow the proper channels that many other gamers do or something so it seems more distant to you than it actually is? 

 

Korea developed the infrastructure first, but esports is growing globally and is getting pretty big in NA as well.   I don't think i've said anywhere that it is exclusive to the korean market, what i am talking about is their dedication to global esports... the games that china and korea do play, they are generally at the top of, by a large marging, compared to western regions...

 

Topping it in what way?  Korea tops esports in infrastructure, they were the first to offer steady salaries, create true professionals with professional licenses, bring top quality production value and make gaming more noticed in the culture in general... people don't need to love esports, but when you have broodwar matches airing on tv channels dedicated to it... it doesn't seem so foreign and strange. 

 

Anyway i'm not saying esports are exclusive to asia, i'd never say that, but it's huge over there, china and korea represent the most dominant regions with the best players from the bottom to the top.

 

Also, do remember that when the Souls Seris (one of the most critically acclaimed gaming experiences of all time (and a personal favorite of mine)) was first released, it was actually panned in Eastern markets and universally acclaimed in Western markets. In the west, the game was a runaway success, while in eastern markets it had a much more gradual rise. And this in part was due to Miyazaki figuring out the formula of the differences between western gaming values and eastern gaming values. So my point is that its hard to say what will be successful where, but there are trends and styles that we can extrapolate to make *predictions.

 

On average western gamers and eastern gamers have different ways they enjoy playing games... but games of real consequence and social impact are closer in spirit to the things coming out of asia, than the wow clones coming out of the west...

 

Sure they also have different tastes in art style and what not, but i've never heard of someone seeking challenging pvp worrying about art styles or how well-dressed characters are. 

 

Predictions are great if you put things into proper context... which means developing a good feel for where the gaming industry is at, and what gamers are all about... like anything there will be countless opinions on what means what... some people have no idea what they are talking about, others are very experienced and have a good feel. 

 

In regards to crowfall and asian markets... it's been said many times already... look at what kinda mmorpgs come out in each region... which ones are presently more pvp oriented... obviously if thats what devs are making in those regions they think there is a demand for it...

 

We can look at the absolute most casual mmorpg players, and we basically have wow players... well they aren't really going to get much out of crowfall because it doesn't have much pve and the themepark elements aren't really the main purpose of the game.  We can look at the absolute most competitive pvpers in each region and see that asia has a much larger population of world class pvpers... We can look at what kinda system it takes to breed that level of skill and see that from absolute newb to top pro every step of the way the eastern market is usually stronger in competitive pvp games. 

 

So it's like where is the real evidence that somehow it isn't a good idea to prepare this game for asian markets...

 

Like I said, kidding themselves. Anyhow, OP (and I) has already put in a ton of evidence that you've been all too happy to ignore, so I'll resort to type. Evidence is there, but horse and water situation here...

 

Oh, and btw, asking about what region puts out what games, where did LoL, DoTA2, the origin of competitive FPS games, and MMO BG's come from? And where do those games cash in the most? Even the Soul Series sells better here, for crying out loud, the new king of PvP in RPGs.

 

Of course, you'll ignore this, and largely the point is moot anyhow. The proof will come in the sales figures (I hope it will do well, but not feeling the same in my gut).

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Like I said, kidding themselves. Anyhow, OP (and I) has already put in a ton of evidence that you've been all too happy to ignore, so I'll resort to type. Evidence is there, but horse and water situation here...

 

Oh, and btw, asking about what region puts out what games, where did LoL, DoTA2, the origin of competitive FPS games, and MMO BG's come from? And where do those games cash in the most? Even the Soul Series sells better here, for crying out loud, the new king of PvP in RPGs.

 

Of course, you'll ignore this, and largely the point is moot anyhow. The proof will come in the sales figures (I hope it will do well, but not feeling the same in my gut).

Let's not kid ourselves... his evidence is not good, anime plots? western shows?  call of duty in japan?  None of this is remotely accurate in representing the asian mmorpg market. 

 

I'm not ignoring anything, it's just you guys are speaking of things that really don't seem relevant at all to the asian mmorpg market. 

 

Uh... i don't know if you knew this but broodwar fizzled out in the early 2000s in the west... it remained the biggest esport in the world for the next 8-10 years in korea, with dedicated TV channels to it, gigantic salaries for players, professional licenses...

 

The fact that western games have turned into the biggest esports in the east just says it all about how region doesn't matter so much and good pvp games will become popular...

 

You can ignore the absolute reality of how big pvp games are in asia... but that won't change the fact that china and korea dominate LoL, korea dominates sc2, crossfire rakes in nearly a billion a year, and that the mmorpgs being released in korea right now have more pvp built in than the ones that have been coming out in the west. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Never stated Crowfall should not try the Asian Market. I said its too early to do it.

 

 

Europe and North America typically share the same ideas on PvP.... so does South America. I see that Asia does not. Korea pushes out some MMOs that do really well, however when you look at Artstyle, Game Mechanics, PvP rules, then you see it is all different from the norm of Asian Markets. Crowfall is even different than the norm for western mmos.

 

Lets take one of the largest games in each of the markets. Monster Hunter for Asia... Call of duty for the west. Call of Duty is a fast pace FPS which for the most part is PvP. Now look at Monster Hunter where it is usually 1-4 people doing intense PvE. Either game has not done so well in the other market. Cultures tend to share the same interests.

 

Now they have a game that is different from the Western Norm... considered "Hardcore" because of full loot, No safe zones, and some of the CW's might have permadeath. It is like taking the complete Opposite of the PvP spectrum and looking to see if it will work on the other end.... just based on concept art, ideas, and articles explaining their game. It will be for the most part ignored in Asia because it is not what they are used to, and frankly people in general do not like to branch out. 

 

You first need a product to sell..... I would like to see how many in the Western audience actually know about Crowfall, and a lot of people are getting wary about backing a game when you have situations like DayZ being eternally Beta, Everquest Next having a huge layoff of their team, Landmark really slowing down, Archeage lying to their founders, etc.... You have to remember folks... we are not the normal. For the most part, the people that are active on the forums really try to stay informed and were really searching for a different game. Everyone else needs a product to look at and play with before they decide.

 

I understand they cant go back now cuz they are in to deep in this stretch goal, however this is all they should do with the Asian market before localizing the game over there.

 

You need to be standing on your feet before you can walk, and walking comes before running.

 

I'll repeat what many have already said: Asia is more PvP centric than the West. The West has a very mixed market between PvP and PvE, but Asia has the most hardcore PvP market in the world (they're famous for it), though I have no doubt their PvE market is just as intense (which is, I mean to say, they just take gaming more seriously than the west in every aspect). The West is considered more moderate in their gaming community as a whole, and this picture you're painting just doesn't seem truthful to reality. Asia is not all about PvE, as you've tried to say. 

 

To prove your point you compared a PvE game's success in Asia to a PvP game's success in the west. How the hell is this logical? 

Simply put, it isn't.

 

Yes I am with you that most of us have been waiting for a game like this and done right.

 

What many have clearly missed the point of the post is that at this stage of the development when they are not even in alpha.... should they be spending money on localizing this website so the Asian markets can ignore it? I say ignore because for the most part Asian markets are not for what Crowfall represents. They like structure, they like PvE..... their recent mmos like Blade and Soul and BDO implemented penalties for engaging in Open World PvP... think about that.

 

If this localization brings $150,000 then it will pay for itself, however if it doesn't then it brings down the company rather support it. To bring that 150,000 dollars from Asia will take about 5 months which adds to Artcrafts current overhead.

 

Since March 26 to this date... they have raised $387,308 in the western market. Who generally enjoy PvP in mmorpgs.

 

Is the 150,000 dollars worth a localization in Asia? I don't think so. Not at this stage. The money could be used helping them meet their deadlines earlier which gets it to alpha and beta faster which is were the support for Crowfall will bloom.

 

As for this post about how they've created a penalty for open world PvPing in their recent games, yeah, that's part of the flavor of the game. This isn't saying they hate PvP at all. If they did, they wouldn't implement it in the first place.

 

Localization in Asia will be 100% worth it. 

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Yes but look at HOW they design heir games. Why is LOL and DOTA big there? Same reason SC is...it is log in and fight. There is no pve there is no grinding. The reason other pvp games are big there? Same reason...battleground/arena style combat is their thing. The games focused on large open world conflict never have the same kind of following there. Shadowbane, people love to point at it but by their standards was a complete failure, it did not appeal to enough people. Liniage and Lineage 2? You are stretching if you point at those because MOST of any players time is spent grinding on PvE. It is a PvE game at it's core else you would NEVER have to resort to PvE grinding to do anything. Go ahead...try it...youtube it so we all can get a really good laugh. Lineage players stick to PvE for weeks at a time, go spend an hour or two PvPing, then go right back to another week of PvE. This does not make it a PvP game. All the many many PvP focused aspects of the game...are distilled into short bouts that only break up the monotony of the grind.

 

Look at ArcheAge for the true attempt at what each market prefers. The western AA (meaning the US and EU versions) force you to enter the other faction's lands to get materials or the biggest payouts. The Asian AA? You can do EVERYTHING without ever leaving your own faction's continent, and almost everything without leaving safe zones. FYI...there are more safezones in the Asian version than the western version and the peace times in the eastern version are longer, or were the last time I played on the Asian servers. This being a game marketed in the Asian markets as a PvP game mind you.

 

Open world PvP, as a focus for a game, has never sold well in Asian markets. Lineage is NOT a PvP focused game, not really. You have to do way too much PvE grinding to accomplish ANYTHING. LoL, SC, DotA2, SC2, etc....don't support you at all in any arguments as they are battleground/arena style games. There is no persistence in any of those games, not even the heroes you use get saved and exp carried over or equipment. The closest to Open world PvP focusing you have for comparison is AA, Aion, Liniage/2, and Eve. AA is a joke...Asian AA is a PvErs paradise. Aion requires a LOT of PvE grinding for things that without them you will get destroyed in PvP, this is even worse for both Liniage games. Eve is the only one you have that you can point to that has a thriving Asian presence that is as big (bigger I believe) than the western market. Eve is a niche game, but is successful because of the requirement of group play.

 

Crowfall has very very little PvE, no grinding, and a focus on resource control, politicking, and of course...open world PvP. Now, the only way it gets any kind of traction in Asian markets is if it markets itself a bit like Eve did for the Asian markets. You don't market it as a pure PvP open world fest (you will get ignored) you market it as a group thing, that you have to survive as a group against others. This will work for them. Showcase the crafting (you will need some hard numbers on how crafting works or they WILL ignore you) as Asian gamers have shown a love of crafting so long as crafting is the only way for best in slot (which is why I am surprised SWG wasn't bigger in Asian markets).

 

Eve is it. It's the only game you can point at as being open world PvP and being successful in the Asian market. The others have too strong a focus on PvE to be reliable sources to back your argument as Crowfall's PvE is nill and yet it is not battleground/arena in nature thus eliminating all of your other game support. You cannot simply go "this game has PvP and is popular over there" because to do so is to ignore everything else about the games as to why they are popular at all or why they aren't.

 

I've gamed with Asian gamers before and I have always enjoyed the group mentality from them. You never hear that someone is a weak link and needs dropped, instead they build up the individual's confidence and find places for them that works to their strengths. Here in the west when someone is struggling more often than not you watch that person get kicked from the group/guild pretty fast.

 

Crowfall CAN do well in Asian markets but you have to have something to show them. They don't trust vague words and they don't trust promises from companies. Focus on the need to work as a group against others, and the need to rely upon crafting...and SHOW THEM the crafting...don't just say it like you have with the west and then not say much else about it...they need hard facts and a how it works kind of deal...and it can do very very well over there. If it gets marketed the same as it is to us however...it will fail...fast.


"Lawful Good does not always mean Lawful Nice."

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Yes but look at HOW they design heir games. Why is LOL and DOTA big there? Same reason SC is...it is log in and fight. There is no pve there is no grinding. The reason other pvp games are big there? Same reason...battleground/arena style combat is their thing. The games focused on large open world conflict never have the same kind of following there. Shadowbane, people love to point at it but by their standards was a complete failure, it did not appeal to enough people. Liniage and Lineage 2? You are stretching if you point at those because MOST of any players time is spent grinding on PvE. It is a PvE game at it's core else you would NEVER have to resort to PvE grinding to do anything. Go ahead...try it...youtube it so we all can get a really good laugh. Lineage players stick to PvE for weeks at a time, go spend an hour or two PvPing, then go right back to another week of PvE. This does not make it a PvP game. All the many many PvP focused aspects of the game...are distilled into short bouts that only break up the monotony of the grind.

 

They love the most competitive pvp games and they love really grindy games, and guess what they love everything inbetween.  Claiming they don't love open world pvp because their games have battleground arenastyle stuff is like claiming westerners don't like it because all they make are wow clones now.  Shadowbane appealed to a lot of chinese players, and it flopped in the west... what does that tell you? 

 

Sorry but PvP in lineage was a big deal for the longest time in korea, people would go hang out at pc baangs together and have epic fights... it eventually was overtaken by sc:bw at pc baangs but it was absolutely HUGE. 

 

You make all these bold claims about how korean gamers allocate their time in these games, got any actual proof? 

 

Look at ArcheAge for the true attempt at what each market prefers. The western AA (meaning the US and EU versions) force you to enter the other faction's lands to get materials or the biggest payouts. The Asian AA? You can do EVERYTHING without ever leaving your own faction's continent, and almost everything without leaving safe zones. FYI...there are more safezones in the Asian version than the western version and the peace times in the eastern version are longer, or were the last time I played on the Asian servers. This being a game marketed in the Asian markets as a PvP game mind you.

 

Why would I look at archeage?  Archeage is a game built around a cash shop, because it was so p2w are you suggesting that western gamers like p2w?  If you can do everything without ever leaving your own faction why was there so much pvp action in archeage korea?  They must really hate pvp, that's why they do it so much. 

 

Open world PvP, as a focus for a game, has never sold well in Asian markets. Lineage is NOT a PvP focused game, not really. You have to do way too much PvE grinding to accomplish ANYTHING. LoL, SC, DotA2, SC2, etc....don't support you at all in any arguments as they are battleground/arena style games. There is no persistence in any of those games, not even the heroes you use get saved and exp carried over or equipment. The closest to Open world PvP focusing you have for comparison is AA, Aion, Liniage/2, and Eve. AA is a joke...Asian AA is a PvErs paradise. Aion requires a LOT of PvE grinding for things that without them you will get destroyed in PvP, this is even worse for both Liniage games. Eve is the only one you have that you can point to that has a thriving Asian presence that is as big (bigger I believe) than the western market. Eve is a niche game, but is successful because of the requirement of group play.

 

There are no big mmorpgs right now that are pushing the focus onto open world pvp, welcome to a post-wow era... neither region has been making big pvp games... All those "battleground/arena" games and how much asian regions excel at them do support my arguments, it shows that asian regions love pvp and are very competitive.  You could also make the argument that the repeated failure of pvp-centric mmos in the west may speak a bit about western preferences?  You can keep speaking about grinding but grinding doesn't matter, the games have pvp that is actively participated in, the games are also more grindy, harsher consequences because they are so grindy, etc. 

 

Go ahead and tell me which pvp centric mmorpg is doing so well in the west right now.  Also tell me why a game being grindy somehow discredits the fact that people still pvp in it. 

 

Crowfall has very very little PvE, no grinding, and a focus on resource control, politicking, and of course...open world PvP. Now, the only way it gets any kind of traction in Asian markets is if it markets itself a bit like Eve did for the Asian markets. You don't market it as a pure PvP open world fest (you will get ignored) you market it as a group thing, that you have to survive as a group against others. This will work for them. Showcase the crafting (you will need some hard numbers on how crafting works or they WILL ignore you) as Asian gamers have shown a love of crafting so long as crafting is the only way for best in slot (which is why I am surprised SWG wasn't bigger in Asian markets).

 

Your read on the asian market just seems to be off imo... eastern market doesnt care what kind of pvp you have, as long as it is done well, there aren't any pvpcentric mmorpgs that are doing well in any region right now.  Eastern market has proven that whether it's WoW, or sc, or LoL, or dota2, or archeage, or aion, or lineage, or shadowbane or blade and soul or black desert online or crossfire.. they come to play and they play hard. 

 

Eve is it. It's the only game you can point at as being open world PvP and being successful in the Asian market. The others have too strong a focus on PvE to be reliable sources to back your argument as Crowfall's PvE is nill and yet it is not battleground/arena in nature thus eliminating all of your other game support. You cannot simply go "this game has PvP and is popular over there" because to do so is to ignore everything else about the games as to why they are popular at all or why they aren't.

 

I've gamed with Asian gamers before and I have always enjoyed the group mentality from them. You never hear that someone is a weak link and needs dropped, instead they build up the individual's confidence and find places for them that works to their strengths. Here in the west when someone is struggling more often than not you watch that person get kicked from the group/guild pretty fast.

 

I've gamed with eastern gamers before, they were very competitive and loved pvp, they also loved strategy and social engineering, seems like crowfall will appeal to them. 

 

Crowfall CAN do well in Asian markets but you have to have something to show them. They don't trust vague words and they don't trust promises from companies. Focus on the need to work as a group against others, and the need to rely upon crafting...and SHOW THEM the crafting...don't just say it like you have with the west and then not say much else about it...they need hard facts and a how it works kind of deal...and it can do very very well over there. If it gets marketed the same as it is to us however...it will fail...fast.

 

Crowfall can do well in western markets, but you have to have something to show them.  They don't trust vague words and they don't trust promises from companies. 

 

TLDR; a game being grindy does not discredit its pvp, all the first generation mmos were grindy, and yet they all still had some of the most gratifying mmorpg pvp, we're talking lineage, uo , asheron's call, eq1 here. 

 

Eastern market has proven its love for pvp and its huge playerbase that enjoys pvp in many many different types of games. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Its almost impossible to speak logically with a fanboy.

 

We will see how many backers come from the Asia market in a few weeks.

If they rush for it... then awesome. I am glad that crowfall is getting more hype, however if not and this turns into a liability for the company then VN.... ill send you my address, just make sure your jaw is nice and loose.

 

Oh and if its like a bunch of 5 dollar backer accounts coming from the same IP then I know its you.

Edited by Vitalized

PvE is like water to my whiskey. Don't water down my whiskey.- Ronald Reagan

 

Don't be a custard gonzo.- Abraham Lincoln

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