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Making Eks Matter To Everyone

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(I have only read the first page of this thread)

To me, as some one who loves hardcore PvP but is far more excited about EK's due to my love of PolySim, the problem lies in the Dregs rule set. 

 

Don't get me wrong I really like the dregs rule set in theory.

 

For me the EK's are a place to not only craft, and buy/sell wares but also a place to further political pursuits, Every respectable guild is going to have those players that are 90% there just to handle the politics that is involved in CW's but the thing about politics is that it doesn't go away when the CW world gets destroyed. As leadership of my guild I should be able to through festivals in my EK where people from other EK's come to visit and celebrate, trade wares and cross swords in arenas. Durring these festivals you bet i am going to invite rank holding members of other known guild to further my relation ship with them to better my guilds chance of winning the political game that is played within the CW's. 

 

Of course for all this to work out that means that regular players and hardcore pvp players need to have in interest in EK's to populate such festivals and to provide business for traders, This is where the Dregs 0% import becomes a massive block on the function of EK's. Personally I like the dregs but I doubt Ill spend time in it compared to the Shadows, the guild v guild ruleset, or any other one because it facilitates teams and factions where politics play a large part in the CW but there is still a place for hardcore PVP players in that environment.

 

I guess to sum it up I don't think that PVP players and PolySim players,like myself, Should be at opposite sides of some war over how the game works but rather should join together to complement each other because in CF both player types are important.

 

I'm not saying every player needs to spend time in EK's I'm fine having those players who are just tenants in an EK and show up every three months to store loot and trade wares all I'm saying is if the majority of high skill level players spend all there time in the dregs the game gets ruined for high skill level polySim players and more than that kills all hope of the EK's existence.

Edited by Falmore

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I like a lot of the EK ideas that have been discussed in this thread, there are some very good reflections on the potential EK world here.

 

Personally I will use the EK in between my guilds active times. For instance in Shadowbane, a lot of the action was centered around mine fights and the occasionally bane. If you wanted action outside of that you had to run zones or camp cities. 

 

So when my guild is active I will be in the CW fighting (probably also when they are not so active) and spend a small portion of my gametime in the EK when "nothing much" really happens in the guild.

 

I am very curious about how they will balance crafting vs CW´s but I guess, there will be some CW´s with zero import and some with "bring whatever you want" eventually. The challenge is to get a balance between joining different play styles and keeping enough peeps in a given CW to make it interesting for everyone.

 

I will of course make the most awesome fluffy bunnies throphy room in my EK... ever(!) (or not)  B)


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The game's community is already quite fragmented by the four rulesets.  The EKs could be the biggest culprit of all, by introducing a bunch of people to the game who may ultimately complain and leave...but not without damaging the game.  I'd love to see some more developer comments about not fracturing the CF community into sub-communities but rather ideas they have about cohering into a gaming community with passion.  

 

I'm worried that developers think that too much of the MOBA match mentality will translate to MMOs with the Campaign Worlds; they are of course free to take the risk, I'm just not sold that it will payoff.  To me, the joy of the MMO is in the (semi) permanence; I want the universe to have history.

 

This is actually fairly close to what I think I've observed in other games.  The idea that am MMORPG should just be a MOBA. (sort of).

 

And the fractured "us" versus "them" belief systems employed by subscribers just inhibits "Community".

 

I like PvP, a lot.  My head is wired more into the City Guard / Protector / Caravan Escort mentality than it is of the "kill everything in sight",because that leads me to more entertaining directions. I find taking a position lends itself to entertaining avenues for me.

 

Personally I've found the PvP community, in any game I've played, (generally) acts like a bunch of noisy locusts.  Lots and lots and LOTS of noise, buzzing of wings, and chewing on things . . .

 

. . . and that's just fine, as long as there are crops (players & player generated goods) to support the eaters who do nothing else but eat. 

 

So the idea might be here that the CWs are the perpetually available respawn grounds for game provided recycling fodder to keep the Locusts fed.  And that might work, except it tells me I'm at an observational crossroads with Crowfall at this time:

 

A)  Crowfall will end up a MOBA with window dressing flopped over it.

 

or

 

B.)  Crowfall will be a groundbreaking MMORPG with Conflict/Competition (PvP) "realistically" woven into the "everyday life" of PvE.  The one supporting the other, both intertwined.

 

You do want a TON of people interested in the PvE aspects of Crowfall (assuming what's developed is worthy in and of itself).  Because every one of them will be throwing money at YOUR gaming company . . . and thus supporting your PvP time.

 

It's NOT "us" versus "them".  Our subscriber dollars and purchases are going to the same cause.

 

It's US.

 

The EKs matter.  PvE matters.  It needs to be engaging, there needs to be diversity and depth, dimension and interest (e.g. Crafting, etc).  Some people have made some good points, I believe I recall one from Jihan that felt like it was thought through in regards to a motivational tie to CWs/PvP.

 

You want a TON of people coming to Crowfall . . . even if many of them want to do nothing but PvE . . . because whatever that % is, you can be guaranteed there is an attendant % spinning off to PvP-focus.  In other words:  Growth.

 

And, as I believe I've understood the idea behind Crowfall, the reason PvE matters to all us "hard core" PvP enjoyers is because it's the foundation for the conflicts to begin with (lulz):  Resources.  Gathering that booty.  Stealing it or defending it.  Transporting it. etc.

 

"But, but, but . . . we can't have any of that nasty PvE stuff taking away developer time from our "l33t" PvP-zors is the only good-zors stuffs!"

  • Art+Craft has experienced staff.  They don't read a post, from any of us, and upset their whole development schedule.  Wake up.
  • Stop thinking 2ft out.  It's not a 100yd dash, it's a 26 mile marathon (what I think an engaging MMORPG should be to my time and $)
  • It's not "us" versus "them" (PvE vs PvP) . . . it's US.

You DO want, passionately, for the PvE side of Crowfall to MATCH the vision you have for Pew-Pew whilst spinning in a circle in your golden spandex, machining your arm around at the speed of light wielding The Invinsible Sword . . . and then running off to the next red dot to repeat the same spittle spewing routine, ad nauseum.

 

I never got the impression from Art+Craft PvE was meant to be a sidelined dynamic.  I felt / interpreted it was meant to be INTERTWINED with PvP . . . to empower it more (than in other games), to provide for "meaningful" PvP (competition for PvE resources, allies / enemies in that process - politics & maneuvering) with a woven together "econo-war" dynamic.

 

Note what I'm saying:  PvP IS a core part of Crowfall.  Obviously.  But it's not to an exclusionary degree you see in an FPS/MOBA, right?  There is Crafting, there are EKs . . .

 

. . . and that's all part of Sand Box.

 

You can claim your Heart is the most important organ in your body, but if I yank your Liver out  you'll die all the same.

 

This isn't about "making you" play a certain way.  It's about actually understanding how the body of Crowfall is going to live and breathe.

 

Which means you must have both.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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Lots of things...

First off thank you for your post, loved it, but I feel like "Hardcore" PvP'ers are just gonna skip what you have said. To summarize (somewhat abridged) in a way that they hopefully wont skip:

 

"EKs and (some) PvE bring in 'bambi's for "hardcore" players to kill and ravage, so be happy they exist."

 

We 'bambi's need you for interesting challenges AI cant provide and you need us to feed your egos when you kill us, so lets love each other hatefully and stop playing the us vs them game.

Edited by ThePaulineIndex

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When I first started to read about crowfall I understood the EK/CW system to function something like this:  CW are a place of contest with various rule sets, which lead to various risks and rewards.  A certain amount of the unrefined raw goods collected, transported, and secured are carried over to the EKs.  The EKs then allowed for the processing of these goods, which in some CW settings could be brought in to provide initial early advantages.  What I had hoped we would see is that these refined goods would come into several major categories that would relate to rule sets, such as cosmetic only items(armor/weapons/character/pet/keep pieces/etc) for the hardcore campaigns, food/water/buff potions for the survivalist campaigns, gear for the quick action campaigns, and strategic resources such as wood planks/carved stone (structure materials) for strategic campaigns (such as guild v guild, or god v god).  Of course all of these necessary pieces can be created within a game, the ruleset just changes what you start with and maybe what things become higher emphasis.  After the CW, players would use or sell their raw resource CW rewards to purchase or refine whichever type of goods fit their campaign playstyle.

 

This system would create a diverse platform which could potentially cater to a wide base of competitive players, and any health game is going to want to encourage diversity.  This may seem counter to the idea of a niche game, and Crowfall is one, but its a niche with diverse possibilities.

 

I personally would also like to see systems in the EK such as Archeage esque farming/resource gathering for players who are more PVE inclined (with the caveat that they still needed some raw goods purchased or earned from CWs).

 

I would also like to see some action in the politcal system as well, wherein people develop and compete within their EKs in a vassalage contract system.  So that your vassals fight for you and you (and your liege if you have one).  There would be an elective option to go to war with other EKs who have a similar competition rating as your own EK and the winner can select a number of options which may include resources or a vassal contract or a parcel of land.  Lose too many wars/resources and decrease a rank (thus losing vassals). Likewise win enough wars or gather enough resources and go up a rank.  You would always need enough resources to support your vassals.  Vassals could also simply swear oaths to you (ie guild mates) but you would always need enough resources to support them  Anyway just a thought, I might have played too much Crusader Kings 2 lately.

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This is actually fairly close to what I think I've observed in other games.  The idea that am MMORPG should just be a MOBA. (sort of).

 

And the fractured "us" versus "them" belief systems employed by subscribers just inhibits "Community".

 

I like PvP, a lot.  My head is wired more into the City Guard / Protector / Caravan Escort mentality than it is of the "kill everything in sight",because that leads me to more entertaining directions. I find taking a position lends itself to entertaining avenues for me.

 

Personally I've found the PvP community, in any game I've played, (generally) acts like a bunch of noisy locusts.  Lots and lots and LOTS of noise, buzzing of wings, and chewing on things . . .

 

. . . and that's just fine, as long as there are crops (players & player generated goods) to support the eaters who do nothing else but eat. 

 

So the idea might be here that the CWs are the perpetually available respawn grounds for game provided recycling fodder to keep the Locusts fed.  And that might work, except it tells me I'm at an observational crossroads with Crowfall at this time:

 

A)  Crowfall will end up a MOBA with window dressing flopped over it.

 

or

 

B.)  Crowfall will be a groundbreaking MMORPG with Conflict/Competition (PvP) "realistically" woven into the "everyday life" of PvE.  The one supporting the other, both intertwined.

 

You do want a TON of people interested in the PvE aspects of Crowfall (assuming what's developed is worthy in and of itself).  Because every one of them will be throwing money at YOUR gaming company . . . and thus supporting your PvP time.

 

It's NOT "us" versus "them".  Our subscriber dollars and purchases are going to the same cause.

 

It's US.

 

The EKs matter.  PvE matters.  It needs to be engaging, there needs to be diversity and depth, dimension and interest (e.g. Crafting, etc).  Some people have made some good points, I believe I recall one from Jihan that felt like it was thought through in regards to a motivational tie to CWs/PvP.

 

You want a TON of people coming to Crowfall . . . even if many of them want to do nothing but PvE . . . because whatever that % is, you can be guaranteed there is an attendant % spinning off to PvP-focus.  In other words:  Growth.

 

And, as I believe I've understood the idea behind Crowfall, the reason PvE matters to all us "hard core" PvP enjoyers is because it's the foundation for the conflicts to begin with (lulz):  Resources.  Gathering that booty.  Stealing it or defending it.  Transporting it. etc.

 

"But, but, but . . . we can't have any of that nasty PvE stuff taking away developer time from our "l33t" PvP-zors is the only good-zors stuffs!"

  • Art+Craft has experienced staff.  They don't read a post, from any of us, and upset their whole development schedule.  Wake up.
  • Stop thinking 2ft out.  It's not a 100yd dash, it's a 26 mile marathon (what I think an engaging MMORPG should be to my time and $)
  • It's not "us" versus "them" (PvE vs PvP) . . . it's US.

You DO want, passionately, for the PvE side of Crowfall to MATCH the vision you have for Pew-Pew whilst spinning in a circle in your golden spandex, machining your arm around at the speed of light wielding The Invinsible Sword . . . and then running off to the next red dot to repeat the same spittle spewing routine, ad nauseum.

 

I never got the impression from Art+Craft PvE was meant to be a sidelined dynamic.  I felt / interpreted it was meant to be INTERTWINED with PvP . . . to empower it more (than in other games), to provide for "meaningful" PvP (competition for PvE resources, allies / enemies in that process - politics & maneuvering) with a woven together "econo-war" dynamic.

there is no leveling and no significant PvE in Crowfall... no everyday life PvE...  None....      there will be mobs around with base gear drops possibly to quickly equip a basic vessel recover run but zero bosses and no good gear drops...   the mobs are there to get in the way of scouts and be strong annoyances when PvP happens nearby...   the resources will not come from farming the mobs but from holding strategic points of interests, claiming mines and lumber camps etc and then running the gauntlet of spies and enemy PvP attacks trying to transport those materials to a safe vault for export after the CW finishes...   this is of course a guess but I am basing some on how Shadowbane mines worked except adding the need to actually move those resources across a distance.  Remember that we will be leveling our skills actively in PvP and passively when logged off... there is no need to kill mobs and that is GREAT!...  they are really just dressing and annoyance and can effect a small scale battle if you can get them on your enemy and not yourself.

 

The EKs WILL be extremely important for the crafted item created...   I am hearing jtodd right, that a rich crafting environment will produce a very wide variety of gear stats and effects plus the disciplines and thrall that can be dropped in will make for huge min/max combinations to try...   the post release developement will be in adding archetypes and hidden crafting recipes...   new materials and crafters in the EK that get to play with them because their guilds PvPers did good dragging the chit home...   some will go on sale at vendors and bring in cash for the guilds to upgrade kingdoms, titles and win the Throne...  this happens in the EK and will be the endgame, the reason for fighting.   even in the dregs with no imports we will still get to bring in a tombs worth of geared vessels, just no building materials like in the other rings.  Again not sure how this import export thing will work but the EKs WILL be important for everyone as a source of gear, ammo, expendables.


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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Frykka, we've specifically been told that one of the purposes of monsters is to provide resources. So yes, farming for mats will be a thing to some extent- although one you can skip if you prefer to source your mats some other way, e.g. collecting tribute from players who have been out farming mats ;)


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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funny. somewhere in the beginning someone states:

"anything that keeps a guild in the EK, keeps them out of campaigns. That's been said several times. Even by JTodd."

 

Soooooo... if a guild stays in the EK because they like it... why is that a problem? they like it. isn't that the point of bieng in a game? do something you like?

if being in a campaign is more fun they probably go there. so question is... why isn't it?

 

Didn't read all the messages.... it was just the first thing in my mind popping up.

 

i've seen similar discussions in so many forums. so many games... for me it's still the same.


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Serrated Guild | (banner: WIP) |  Free Lands of Azure

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Not everyone has to love EKs.  Personally, I am interesting in building my own kingdom and/or helping to build up a guild kingdom.   One of Crowfall's major selling points for me was the EKs--in Wildstar I pretty much split my time between building a couple of epic (if I do say so myself) plots and bgs. 

 

If people don't like or want to ignore EKs, I guess I would have to ask--so what?  I hate raiding, but I played a ton of WoW.  I played quite a bit of Archeage, but I never once had my own land.  I've "missed out" on many incentives, rewards and accolades because I chose not to participate in major components of several MMOs.  So, if you don't like EKs, put all your resources into winning campaigns, trade resources to crafters for gear upgrades or potentially other options.  Pretty simple, really.  :mellow:

 

going to like my guildies more and more :)


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Serrated Guild | (banner: WIP) |  Free Lands of Azure

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Frykka, we've specifically been told that one of the purposes of monsters is to provide resources. So yes, farming for mats will be a thing to some extent- although one you can skip if you prefer to source your mats some other way, e.g. collecting tribute from players who have been out farming mats ;)

sure... can I get a big uggghh for grinding mats from monsters then?   I sure hope that we don't have to farm them too much, of course that is usually the bait that lures the afk macro group in for easy pickings...  2 am macro group search is how I will farm mobs if this is the case...


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funny. somewhere in the beginning someone states:

"anything that keeps a guild in the EK, keeps them out of campaigns. That's been said several times. Even by JTodd."

 

Soooooo... if a guild stays in the EK because they like it... why is that a problem? they like it. isn't that the point of bieng in a game? do something you like?

if being in a campaign is more fun they probably go there. so question is... why isn't it?

 

Didn't read all the messages.... it was just the first thing in my mind popping up.

 

i've seen similar discussions in so many forums. so many games... for me it's still the same.

I'm pretty sure JTodd's next line was, "and that's a bad thing." EK is not ment for a player to spend all their time there. It's primary purpose is player housing, guildhall, and permanent markets for higher tier items between campaigns. It is not made to sustain a player over the course of the game.

 

I think people who say they will be PvPing all the time will begrudgingly realize that they will need access to equipment and vessels and may need to eventually take the journey to those 'carebear lands'...

 

...and that's when you get them with the CareBear Stare and warm their unnaturally frozen hearts...mwah haw haw ha!


"Through the travail of ages, midst the pomp and toils of war, have I fought and strove and perished, countless times among the stars.
As if through a glass and darkly, the age old strife I see, when I fought in many guises and many names, but always me."

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Buying Crowfall just for the EKs is like buying Diablo just so you can chat on battle.net. There's nothing wrong with that but it's not the game.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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EKs are free once you buy the game, just like battle.net.

 

If you want to give ACE money to dress up your chat lobby with assets ACE had already built to put in the actual game, they're happy to cooperate.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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For a portion of the community EKs are just window dressing, for others they are an important strategic implementation, and for others they are the game.  The beauty of the system is that everyone gets to play the game they want and nobody gets to force anyone else into the box they want them to be in.  Most of the posts on here are so limited and linear, people are assume the whole Crowfall gaming community is going to think and play like they do.  The system is dynamic, the EKs will matter as much as the community molds them to.  That is why Crowfall is ground breaking.

 

As players we are use to games handing us a picture that we are suppose to ooo and ahh over until we get bored and we move on.  ACE isn't handing us a picture, they are handing us a puzzle with multiple ways to put it together.  We, as the gaming community, will make some pictures then ooo and ahh over them.  Then we will shatter the puzzle pieces and put them back together in a new way and get a new picture.

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Not very many "MMO vets" know what that looks like or even where to start.

 

This can be seen through the forum as player with different past experiences come to Crowfall with their own MMO baggage.

 

The first sentence is an empty claim.

 

The second sentence is full of fallacy.  In any human endeavor, of any kind, any one of us, you included, carry forward with us our experiences.

 

It's what you DO with those experiences that renders them either "baggage" (negative/inhibiting) or insight / experience.

 

"Player made content" is often used as a marketing term to lead people around by their noses.  And it works often times generating a chirping horde of drooling gerbils chanting "we are the content-zors my friend, we are the . . . etc.), all glassy eyed and giggly.

 

So what, exactly, are good representations in your mind of worthy "player made content"?


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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For a portion of the community EKs are just window dressing, for others they are an important strategic implementation, and for others they are the game.  The beauty of the system is that everyone gets to play the game they want and nobody gets to force anyone else into the box they want them to be in.  Most of the posts on here are so limited and linear, people are assume the whole Crowfall gaming community is going to think and play like they do.  The system is dynamic, the EKs will matter as much as the community molds them to.  That is why Crowfall is ground breaking.

 

As players we are use to games handing us a picture that we are suppose to ooo and ahh over until we get bored and we move on.  ACE isn't handing us a picture, they are handing us a puzzle with multiple ways to put it together.  We, as the gaming community, will make some pictures then ooo and ahh over them.  Then we will shatter the puzzle pieces and put them back together in a new way and get a new picture.

 

roger :) i'll be the ooh aah :)

and when i'm done... i'll shout "OOOOooooooooonward!!!" and see what happens...


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Serrated Guild | (banner: WIP) |  Free Lands of Azure

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The beauty of the system is that everyone gets to play the game they want and nobody gets to force anyone else into the box they want them to be in.  Most of the posts on here are so limited and linear, people are assume the whole Crowfall gaming community is going to think and play like they do.  The system is dynamic, the EKs will matter as much as the community molds them to.  That is why Crowfall is ground breaking.

 

What the hell are you talking about? Todd has explicitly stated that this game is not for everyone, that it's designed and being built for a niche market. You have completely fabricated your expectations.

 

ACE isn't handing us a picture, they are handing us a puzzle with multiple ways to put it together.  We, as the gaming community, will make some pictures then ooo and ahh over them.  Then we will shatter the puzzle pieces and put them back together in a new way and get a new picture.

 

Please tell me in clear detail what activities you imagine will be conducted in EKs. Don't just say vague crap like "creating a market" or "building a community". Be specific. What are some clear examples of what will be your day-to-day behaviors? What are you going to be doing in your EK (or anyone else's) that fills the time? If you can't give specific examples, then clearly you don't know, and your expectations are not based on objective reality. So what are your examples of this game you want to play in the EK that ACE is supposedly enabling for you?


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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