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What's Worse Than P2W?


Tahru
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Everyone I know wants a fair shot.  I am always adamant against P2W, not only for the fairness but because it sucks the value out of your achievements.  Even for the person that P2W benefits, there is zero satisfaction in getting handed something unfairly.

 

So what is worse?  For me it is that P2W is used as a constant assault against every multiplayer game that tries to get paid over time.  Most of the time, it is just someone disgruntled with the changes complaining without justification for the accusation.

 

If every game had to abide by the strictest rule of no-P2W, then there would be no games to play.

 

Anyway, that is my rant.  Life is a compromise, there is way more grey than black and white.

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Everyone I know wants a fair shot.  I am always adamant against P2W, not only for the fairness but because it sucks the value out of your achievements.  Even for the person that P2W benefits, there is zero satisfaction in getting handed something unfairly.

 

So what is worse?  For me it is that P2W is used as a constant assault against every multiplayer game that tries to get paid over time.  Most of the time, it is just someone disgruntled with the changes complaining without justification for the accusation.

 

If every game had to abide by the strictest rule of no-P2W, then there would be no games to play.

 

Anyway, that is my rant.  Life is a compromise, there is way more grey than black and white.

Well crowfall does have a couple p2w type elements so far, nothing that can break the game, but you add up enough small p2w elements and you may end up with a pretty big problem. 

 

In your opinion there is no satisfaction in getting handed something unfairly... that isn't the reality for many gamers though.  Some people love "winning" when the deck is heavily stacked in their favor.  Some people never get bored of killing level 20s as a level 60.... Some don't get bored of 20vs2ing.... Some don't get bored of playing small games with no real competitive playerbase and pretending they are badbottom pvpers. 

 

And no... it's not hard to avoid p2w elements... there are many games that did it back in the day.  It's simply a matter of convenience oriented gamers allowing for p2w creep.... slowly it became acceptable to sell crafting boosters or xp boosters, or levels, or "cosmetics" that had stats... or ways to progress quicker in general, or gliders or mounts or w/e else. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I think mmo gamers in general has been burned too many times with the whole p2w thing, that whenever we see something even remotely starting to maybe become a little p2w we lash out.

 

Its not to discredit the game or the devs, its actually an attempt at making the game fair for everyone so that it can thrive. Devs might think people shouting p2w is against the game or the devs, but I would say its the exact opposite.

 

Whats worse than P2W?  A community that lets devs run their game into the ground by not speaking up. 

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I think my first or second post on these boards was about this.  The two things that Crowfall cannot do under any circumstance:

1.  Be P2W, or even look like it is P2W.  The truth is this--if it gets that stigma, even if unjustly, players will leave.

2.  Be easily exploitable.  Again, as a competitive game, hacks/cheats/exploits left unchecked will trash Crowfall. 

 

The MMO market is saturated and it isn't like the days of yore when you had 2 maybe 3 choices of MMOs to play.  Players will simply not tolerate P2W or unchecked hacks/cheats/exploits in a competitive MMO.  They will leave--and there is a graveyard of recent MMOs to prove it.  

 

AND ANOTHER THING...

 

I do not think certain "convenience items" should make their way into cash shops.  No potions or scrolls that buff or any of that garbage.  That is an advantage, especially in a truly combative game.  If I had my way, the ONLY thing a cash shop would offer would be cosmetic items (such as skins) and account services (renames, character slots, server transfers, etc.).

 

Crowfall has already gone down the path of selling castles and such for EKs.  IMHO, this could potentially be an advantage in game (we don't know for sure).  I would humbly request that they please don't take it any farther than this.  Yes, I know it takes money to make and run a game.  However, money comes from players.  If Crowfall takes the quick and "easy" money, players will leave and the game will suffer long term.  It is better to start smaller with high standards and grow then to start larger with loose standards and watch all the hard work and great ideas go right into the garbage.     

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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...

 

Whats worse than P2W?  A community that lets devs run their game into the ground by not speaking up. 

 

That's the opposite extreme. :)   I don't think I was advocating that.

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I think my first or second post on these boards was about this.  The two things that Crowfall cannot do under any circumstance:

1.  Be P2W, or even look like it is P2W.  The truth is this--if it gets that stigma, even if unjustly, players will leave.

2.  Be easily exploitable.  Again, as a competitive game, hacks/cheats/exploits left unchecked will trash Crowfall. 

 

The MMO market is saturated and it isn't like the days of yore when you had 2 maybe 3 choices of MMOs to play.  Players will simply not tolerate P2W or unchecked hacks/cheats/exploits in a competitive MMO.  They will leave--and there is a graveyard of recent MMOs to prove it.  

 

Agree with this of course.  But there needs to be a business model that works with it.  Developers, equipment and bandwidth don't grow on trees.  My post was prompted by another game that is nearing its end because it just does not have the funds to the great things it wanted to do.

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I think the only way to get funds whilst not building a slow powercreep is by keeping it cosmetic only.

That could mean weapon, armor, mount, caravan skins.. new houses, thralls, castles, flags, pets, unicorns. You name it and people will buy it.

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I think the only way to get funds whilst not building a slow powercreep is by keeping it cosmetic only.

That could mean weapon, armor, mount, caravan skins.. new houses, thralls, castles, flags, pets, unicorns. You name it and people will buy it.

 

Yes, and I'm going to get very mercenary here, but if the money has to come from somewhere:

1. One account, One guild.  You want to be in multiple guilds?  Fine--buy another account.

2. One character slot per account--UNLESS--you buy one via cash shop or VIP sub. 

 

As harsh as these sound, I'd much prefer these (with the addition of the things Zinnie suggests) than a P2W situation. 

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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I have no problem with players getting some advantages after spending money on a game, as long as the advantages conferred aren't so significant that it impacts on the outcome of a campaign.

 

If someone spends $1,000 or 1,000 hours more than I do on a game, I find it normal that in a duel, this player has more chance of winning than I do.

 

Players can be advantaged over other players for multiple reasons (social, skills, time, tactic, etc.) and the money is just one of those factors.

 

I think it's still one of the things we've to be concerned about and keep watching closely, because it doesn't take much time to turn a somewhat balanced payment model, with store + optional sub, into something unbalanced where paying customers earn unreasonable advantages.

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Probably not the angle you're looking for, but I'd rather pay for an item than listen to hours of forced un-skippable cut scenes, by terrible voice actors, on main story quests I could give two poorly made sockss about....but that's the PvE/rat wheel in general.

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Everyone I know wants a fair shot.  I am always adamant against P2W, not only for the fairness but because it sucks the value out of your achievements.  Even for the person that P2W benefits, there is zero satisfaction in getting handed something unfairly.

 

So what is worse?  For me it is that P2W is used as a constant assault against every multiplayer game that tries to get paid over time.  Most of the time, it is just someone disgruntled with the changes complaining without justification for the accusation.

 

If every game had to abide by the strictest rule of no-P2W, then there would be no games to play.

 

Anyway, that is my rant.  Life is a compromise, there is way more grey than black and white.

Pay to scam, there was a game that was opened in eu and na but then closed down after a year.

 

The over hype people used micro transactions to get cool skin and etc stuff for themselves and it was a let down once it closed after a year. 

SkDJEH9.png Discord: message me if you want to stay in touch. Retired CrowFall member.

 

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What's worse than pay to win is just poor game quality itself. Often these are synonymous, games that resort to power selling just to milk whales typically don't respect their game and don't put together a quality product.

 

Games usually disappoint for a combination of reasons. If P2W was done under very specific circumstances, it could still result in a good game. Things like PvE story driven games don't really suffer from P2W directly, and competitive games can simply match you with players with similar power regardless of how you acquired it.

 

The real problem is that P2W games make really broken competitive arrangements and tediously unenjoyable content to coerce you into relying on bought power or accessibility, and that is the specific cause of the games disappointment, not the power selling specifically.

 

Consider D3 for a moment, it wasn't the RMT that made the game boorish and unenjoyable to proceed through the hardest difficulties, it was the fact that you couldn't progress and loot through the harder portions of the game with reasonable effort and flexibility.

 

The difficulty and drop rates were intentionally tailored to coerce players to use the AH and pay real money for the best items just to overcome the tedium, it's this kind of progress manipulation that is common in online RPGs that is the root problem, money is the motivation, and it's not exclusive to P2W, subscription games have used the same throttling to prolong content and make more money as well.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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