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hamopeche

Why Is Duping A Thing?

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Professionally.

 

Then you are well aware of why duping occurs. While you can put in place mechanisms/procedures to rigorously test and identify bugs none of those methods are full proof. This is compounded by the fact that you don't have a single person programming the entire game, it is a combination of people each writing their own modules that are eventually fitted together to create a finished product. While one person may have a general understanding of how the other modules tie to theirs, they do not have a deep understanding of all the nuances which make those other module works.

 

Also, put very simply, people are not perfect. We have seen engineers overlook the risk of cold temperatures on an O-ring and a myriad of other issues which appear rather obvious after the fact. Compound this with a knowledgeable player base who may be professional coders who understand where the weak points are likely to exist and continue poking around until they find a thread they can exploit. Duping/hacking in games is a constant game of cat and mouse and with many games having real world  monetary benefits, you can see how this is possible.

 

I'm also going to assume that the previous comment related to SB being dupe free was a joke, because there was rampant duping in SB. 

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And you are missing my point. It is entirely feasible and achievable, through proper business logic and implementation design, to be sure that there is no execution path by which duping can occur, and thereby preempt the entirety of the concerns that people express.

 

Sometimes it is not even possible to perceive how players will use a given mechanic which results in wild imbalances in a game. The same can be said for players looking for exploits. It is economically unfeasible to achieve 100% perfect coding, if this were the design goal then the game would never release. The jobs of the devs is to realistically minimize and prevent the ability of players to exploit the system and where players are found to have done so react appropriately. 

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The thing with Crowfall is that the campaign system is so brilliant for a bunch of different reasons. Since there's no real meaningful persistent worlds serious cheats and exploits probably won't effect much outside of that campaign. The effects from economy based exploits spread really fast in traditional MMOs because of auctions houses and big capital city hubs.

 

Also I have a good feeling that this game is going to be really hard for people to do RMT in. Most of the really amazing dupes/hacks/exploits are done by people looking to make money off selling virtual currency and items. I doubt too many people will be able to pull this off in Crowfall due to it being a PvP MMO with little PvE. Also it will probably be impossible to bot anything worthwhile or effectively.

 

The only RMT you'll probably see if from individual players trying to make a quick buck every now and then.

Edited by Zybak

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... It is economically unfeasible to achieve 100% perfect coding....

Forgetting for a second that perfect code does not exist...

 

Critical code, like airline code, is accomplished by contracting 3 different development firms in different parts of the world to write the exact same algorithm and then having code that runs all three and takes a vote on the result.


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Critical code, like airline code, is accomplished by contracting 3 different development firms in different parts of the world to write the exact same algorithm and then having code that runs all three and takes a vote on the result.

 

I've never heard that. At best it's a myth you heard and believed. Having direct experience of the airline industry, this bears no resemblance to truth. It's possible there's a company that does this, but it is hardly a standard in the "airline" industry, much less a standard for "critical code" more generally.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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I am a software architect with more than 20 years experience. It is true.

 

Bald assertion. Give us facts. I've encountered a countless number of "software architects" with long experience who couldn't write Hello World. You present this "fact" as if it's an established standard, yet I, with at least as much experience and seniority, have never heard of such a thing.

 

Tell you what, I'll start providing facts. Mars Climate Orbiter. If this claim of yours bore a shred of truth, then the flight control system for a $327.6 million spacecraft would count as "critical code" and would have undergone the process you fabricated described. Had it undergone such a process, the failure that occurred would not have occurred.

 

There. Actual, verifiable fact. Would you care to reciprocate?


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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I am not compelled to have an ego contest on a game forum. Believe or don't believe it is OK. I always found that pretty cool.

 

If anyone wants to learn something new, maybe start here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-version_programming

Edited by Tahru

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ACE quotes about what to expect regarding dupes in Crowfall :

 

Not really much to talk about here. 

 

1) Our key MMO technologists have both experienced and fixed many known methods of duping on multiple game codebases.  We aren't likely to make the common coding and system design mistakes that allow dupes.

 

2) We will log lots of things and have lots of key metrics.  Any influx of items or materials will be obvious pretty quickly.  And in the unlikely event we end up having a dupe bug, we'll know exactly who's benefiting.

 

3)  The only way to deal with cheaters is to perma-ban them, and ensure all their assets are seized and destroyed.  And then be vigilant for them attempting to rejoin the game, rinse and repeat as necessary.  This is a much more difficult problem on free-to-play games than a pay-to-play game like Crowfall.

 

If you come across a bug that allows duping you better report it to ArtCraft support post-haste, not talk about it to other players/publish it and cease doing it yourself except at the direct behest of an ArtCraft employee.  We'll be happy to make you famous after we get it fixed and take care of the fallout, but that would be your call, not ours.

 

P.S. before WOW launched, I probably held the record for the most people ever banned (and the most banned in one incident), and huge proportion of those were for cheating/duping.  I'm not particularly proud of this, as banning is a blunt instrument, but some actions (like cheating) are so service-threatening that there is no other appropriate punishment.  Players expect us to keep the playing field level, and we take that responsibility seriously.

 

Every transaction is logged already.  Muling won't work.  We're going to make new and more exciting mistakes is my hope, rather than many of the old mistakes.

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Who should we believe... 100% of the gaming industry and their trials and tribulations... or one guy claiming you can make flawless software in the form of a complex video game if your standards are high enough....


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Who should we believe... 100% of the gaming industry and their trials and tribulations... or one guy claiming you can make flawless software in the form of a complex video game if your standards are high enough....

  1. It isn't 100% of the gaming industry; and
  2. I never said anything about flawless software.

l2think


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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I concede there were dupes but as SB players are a community of high standards these dupes were reported immediately and absolutely no profit was made off of them. Mourning was a good example of this exemplary behavior.

Edited by checkyotrack

You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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Who should we believe... 100% of the gaming industry and their trials and tribulations... or one guy claiming you can make flawless software in the form of a complex video game if your standards are high enough....

 

One guy making a lot of unsubstantiated claims about his "skills".... sounds familiar! Pot, meet kettle!


"Darken the moon and conceal the stars; our Light will never be extinguished." - The Tome of the First Flame

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The Lantern Watch - A Crowfall-first guild. Welcome Home. Join us @ http://crowfall.shivtr.com

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One guy making a lot of unsubstantiated claims about his "skills".... sounds familiar! Pot, meet kettle!

 

The fact that it was VN making the statement does not make the statement invalid.

 

 

  1. It isn't 100% of the gaming industry; and
  2. I never said anything about flawless software.

l2think

 

 

If you admit that code/software is released that is not flawless, then why ask how it is that dupes occur? The devs don't intentionally write dupes into their software (i suppose they could) but with the modular nature of programming today it is hard to predict the outcomes of all those interactions especially when you factor in the sheer magnitude of transactions that are occurring simultaneously. We have all heard stories of people going to their local ATM to see that somehow they now have $900,000,000 in their account. The good thing though, is that the devs have stated they are willing to take aggressive steps to eliminate not only the bug in the software but also the player/s exploiting that bug.

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Games have system requirements for synchronicity other software doesn't. If a banking transaction takes a few extra milliseconds for verification we might roll our eyes a bit. If a game does it to a few thousand people simultaneously we get a lagged out mess that will usually end up crashing.  You'll notice dupes almost always involve creating "lag" on the server. Add to that the economic restraints that prevent the massive redundancy required in critical online applications and it just gets worse. Claiming game software is like other software is absurd. Oh and the perfectly foreseeable code faults theory is trashed by the recent events on Wall Street floor trading software. That software is tested for months on parallel servers before being released and nanoseconds can mean the loss of millions of dollars. They still managed to muck it up. Things happen even to the best systems.


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Games have system requirements for synchronicity other software doesn't.

 

That you are unaware of other real-time, high transaction load systems is no indication that they don't exist.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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