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Why Is Duping A Thing?


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Your expectations are not in line with the reality of software development... you also try to attack people on a personal level when those unrealistic expectations are called into question. 

 

Sometimes people have trouble facing reality to the point where delusions start to take hold and they will do anything to defend their position.

 

We might be seeing this happening here, regardless it was an interesting read.

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ACE quotes about what to expect regarding dupes in Crowfall :    

Then you are well aware of why duping occurs. While you can put in place mechanisms/procedures to rigorously test and identify bugs none of those methods are full proof. This is compounded by the fact

I'm not asking how it happens. My question is rhetorical. I keep reading people talking about how ACE is going to handle duping bugs. The assumption that duping is going to be an issue, at least early

Of course I'm not stating that. I never implied anything of the kind. I never even implied that I expected there to be no dupe bugs in any games. Indeed, I stated the contrary on this very page.

 

Any piece of software is a composition of algorithms. Any algorithm can be shown to be either deterministic or non-deterministic. Because of this, and because we may compose any n algorithms a1...an into composite algorithm A, we can be assured, if we choose to be so, that A is deterministic. Thus, given appropriate selections of a1...an, we can be confident that A is a deterministic finite automaton. If this is the case, we may, with certainty, and given sufficient time, evaluate every possible state of A. Of course, as complexity increases, evaluation time increases, and there is an upper bound on evaluation time according to technology, budget, and resources.

 

Fortunately, the complexity of A is not the product of the complexities of a1...an. Instead, each evaluation f(ai) is independent, and the total evaluation complexity is the sum of the independent evaluations for i = 1...n, plus the evaluation complexity of the algorithm by which A combines a1...an. This is the fundamental predicate of Test-Driven Development and like disciplines. Thus, it is theoretically possible to guarantee that A, perhaps a piece of software, is incapable of achieving unanticipated state.

 

So. Why do bugs occur? Well, it turns out humans are neither perfectly disciplined, nor perfectly consistent in their discipline. Over a large enough expanse of code, a lapse of discipline is extremely likely to occur, particularly when rigorous methodology is not followed. While we could wish all developers exercised unfailing discipline over all ai, it is not reasonably hoped for. Thus, mature development organizations identify critical ai for particular attention and devote comparatively high analysis to them. Because any given ai can be shown to be valid, the most important aspects of a piece of software can be safeguarded from bugs, even if that effort cannot be scaled to the entire application.

 

For those of you thinking that this is nonsense, since you can't anticipate every combination of actions from all the people who might ever use the software, I encourage you to defer your conclusions until you better understand set analysis.

 

I must be missing something because you appear to be quite annoyed that software is released where dupes are possible.

 

 

I'm not asking how it happens. My question is rhetorical. I keep reading people talking about how ACE is going to handle duping bugs. The assumption that duping is going to be an issue, at least early on, in every new game is ubiquitous, and that's just pathetic.

 

How unfathomably atrocious is your software if duping is even possible in the first place? How does game after game get so horrifically implemented that they have these bugs at all? Is the state of the industry so astoundingly terrible?

 

Preempting duping isn't a matter of just testing enough. It's a matter of having the fundamentally sound design and development acumen not to create loopholes in the first place. This has nothing to do with computer games, specifically; it's just a basic software development topic.

 

Super short version:

Duping issues?? Are we serious???

 

 

Your algorithm post is a prime example of academia versus the real world. In theory you are most likely correct but as myself and others have pointed out to you, just because it is desirable to have bug free/dupe free code it is simply unrealistic for a multitude of reasons. On one hand you slam the industry for releasing "unfathomably atrocious" games where dupes exist, then claim that you do expect it to occur.

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I must be missing something because you appear to be quite annoyed that software is released where dupes are possible. 

 

Your algorithm post is a prime example of academia versus the real world. In theory you are most likely correct but as myself and others have pointed out to you, just because it is desirable to have bug free/dupe free code it is simply unrealistic for a multitude of reasons. On one hand you slam the industry for releasing "unfathomably atrocious" games where dupes exist, then claim that you do expect it to occur.

Well, if your evaluation of the world is that all things are of binary state, you're guaranteed to make this misreading of what I've written. You appear incapable of understanding that what I'm saying should be the case is that duping, and other catastrophic bugs, should be quite rare, rather than ubiquitous.

 

Bugs occur in effectively all software; bugs of the severity of duping do not occur in all software.

 

As for your accusation of academic naivete, I am a self-taught developer with no college degree. I'm all practical, baby. You'll have to find your justification for wanting me to be wrong somewhere else.

Edited by hamopeche

I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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That you are unaware of other real-time, high transaction load systems is no indication that they don't exist.

 

I'm aware they exist and as I plainly said I'm also aware they don't have the same constraints gaming software has. Artcraft isn't going to be able to afford parallel server systems operating in real time on their budget. They won't have real time backups either. No game company can. They can't just bury their costs like financial or government institutions can because they're not that vital and don't produce those kinds of profit margins. Dupes aren't simply bugs they exploit the weaknesses of both hardware and software much of which is beyond the control of the game programmer. Due to their nature games expose way more of their server architecture to exploits than most networks and it's a nightmare keeping people out of even the most secure networks.

Edited by zymurgeist

CF_Osgyth.png

 

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Well, if your evaluation of the world is that all things are of binary state, you're guaranteed to make this misreading of what I've written. You appear incapable of understanding that what I'm saying should be the case is that duping, and other catastrophic bugs, should be quite rare, rather than ubiquitous.

 

Bugs occur in effectively all software; bugs of the severity of duping do not occur in all software.

 

As for your accusation of academic naivete, I am a self-taught developer with no college degree. I'm all practical, baby. You'll have to find your justification for wanting me to be wrong somewhere else.

 

 

Self taught or not, your algorithm post is all theory and is riddled with the same pitfalls found in academia, so you both fall into the same trap. Lets see if my reading of your posts are accurate.

 

1. Bugs will always exist in code.

2. Dupes are catastrophic in nature thus game breaking.

3. Developers have no desire to release games in a broken state.

4. Given enough testing all bugs can be addressed.

 

The biggest detriment to bug elimination is time. The guys/gals doing all of this wonderful programming are smart enough to recognize bugs when they see them and know that the code is not behaving as intended. These teams do not have the luxury of unlimited time/testing as releases can only be pushed back so far before you have alienated your player base. We no longer live in a world where we are hit with a marketing blitz as the game is being handed off to distributors and the developers are able to take full advantage of a game's hype. Today game companies have to attract an audience much earlier and keep their attention throughout the development life cycle. 

 

Developers are also smart enough to recognize that even the most obscure bug which allows dupes to happen will eventually be found, so I highly doubt that games have been released where they are aware of a dupe. I am less concerned with dupes in this game than I am with other more annoying bugs/exploits. I think the design of the game goes a long way to minimize the effect of dupes via import/export rules, exploding worlds, and good ole pvp with the ability to loot your foes. Good luck transporting your 9000000000000000000 iron ore.

 

I'm more concerned and annoyed by player chat being spammed by gold farmers and watching players teleport around the map going from mob to mob or resource node to resource node. Again I think the design of the game goes a long ways to discouraging this behavior, but it does not prevent it, so to one degree or another we will likely see it again in this game. In many industries you see that the nefarious individuals are usually one step ahead of the good guys. Hackers take advantage of zero day bugs to steal identities/money (a rather catastrophic "bug" considering the real world implications), athletes take performance enhancing drugs which are currently not being tested for, drug lords dig tunnels, fly planes, or use submarines to bypass import controls. You will always have people looking to game the system and with the complexity of today's world creating MMOs it is a matter of when not if. It is good to have lofty goals and a desire to deliver the best product possible but sadly the cards are stacked against you.

 

The testing required to ensure that it is impossible to dupe prior to game launch and before all other software patches would result in bankrupting the studio. This is why duping is ubiquitous in the industry, not because the developers don't care, not because the developers are inept, not because they don't have rigorous testing methodology, it is simply inevitable. These people are creating worlds and same amazingly complex interactions that are required to make that world so enjoyable unfortunately opens the door for some level of exploitation. 

Edited by Verot
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Verot, dont get your panties in a bunch broski.

 

Everyone with a little common sense knows the OP is just trying to prove he is some kind of software development genius. And others have already called him out on his stupidity and his contradictory statements. He has basically proven himself wrong with his own statements, and the second someone calls him out on it he goes straight to the "i know more than you so your dumb and im right" little rant of his.

 

You and most of the others with some common sense and actual understanding of the real world application of software development are already more right then him so dont get to stressed over some little internet person's ranting.

 

And because i know hes gonna make some rebuttle about how he is smarter than me cause he is self taught and blah blah blah. Ill just throw this out for him.

 

I have a Bachelors Degree in Simulation and Game Programming and currently work as a Government contractor for Software testing.

 

Its better to just let him wine and cry to no one then to try and argue with him over and over again. when he clearly is just gonna take the stance of ignorance and choose to argue over nothing untill people just stop posting. There is literally nowhere for this thread to go anymore because every rational person has already told him whats what. He just doesnt want to admit that he was wrong with his claim of a the perfect theorized program/programming solutions is something that should just be 100% common.

 

i would love it if the thread just got locked cause there is literally nothing left to say, its just yelling at a brick wall that wont recognize its own faults. but i doubt that will happen

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Everyone with a little common sense knows the OP is just trying to prove he is some kind of software development genius.

 

the second someone calls him out on it he goes straight to the "i know more than you so your dumb and im right" little rant of his.

 

And because i know hes gonna make some rebuttle about how he is smarter than me cause he is self taught and blah blah blah.

 

He just doesnt want to admit that he was wrong with his claim of a the perfect theorized program/programming solutions is something that should just be 100% common.

 

... except I haven't said or claimed any of those things. Not once. I've not even implied them. Nowhere did I make any assertion that I have some authority. I've simply argued rationally, with evidence.

 

You need me to have committed a logical fallacy, so you can dismiss my argument, since you've chosen not present any actual counter-argument. So you're asserting that I claimed I'm the smartest, and that I claimed bug-free code is both possible and expected, but those are outright fabrications. If I'm wrong, make a factual, rational counter-argument.

 

Seems I'm the only one in here trying to have a conversation, instead of just blindly defending expectations of failure.

 

I have a Bachelors Degree in Simulation and Game Programming and currently work as a Government contractor for Software testing.

 

Who's trying to wave a tiny little e-peen now?

 

I'll bow out of this thread at this point. Those interested in considering the sources of design and implementation errors and attempting to minimize them through discipline and rigor have some food for thought. The rest of you can make all the false claims about what I wrote that you please. I mean, reality is right here in this thread. It's not like your assertions are even unfalsifiable. The proof that you're making up lies about what I wrote is plain to read. So I don't know who it is you're hoping to convince, other than yourselves.

I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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 So you're asserting that I claimed I'm the smartest, and that I claimed bug-free code is both possible and expected, but those are outright fabrications. If I'm wrong, make a factual, rational counter-argument.

 

And you are missing my point. It is entirely feasible and achievable, through proper business logic and implementation design, to be sure that there is no execution path by which duping can occur, and thereby preempt the entirety of the concerns that people express.

 

So which is it?
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Okay I lied, one last response to demonstrate the extent of the misrepresentation:

 

So which is it?


Sure, bugs occur in all software, and it is to be expected that duping will occur in some games, if only through lapses of discipline. However, it should occur with far lesser frequency, and in far fewer games, than other kinds of bug, because the significance of failure behooves great priority.


Bugs occur in effectively all software; bugs of the severity of duping do not occur in all software.


l2read

 

I'm out.

I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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hamopeche, on 23 Aug 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:snapback.png

Sure, bugs occur in all software, and it is to be expected that duping will occur in some games, if only through lapses of discipline. However, it should occur with far lesser frequency, and in far fewer games, than other kinds of bug, because the significance of failure behooves great priority.

 

 

It is not just a lack of discipline that results in dupes. Dupes are far less frequent than other sorts of bugs and patch notes back this up.

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I with hamopeche on this.  Duping is not just a "bug".  It is a fundamental failure in design which just won't happen with properly trained engineers.  The refrain that bugs happen and no program is perfect is uneducated.   I think we see these sort of bugs because game programmers are largely self taught or go to "game programming" schools that fail to teach their students proper programming discipline.  

The sort of hogwash that gamers have to put up would be outrageous in any other field. 

Edited by kroked
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I disagree, dupping is a bug.  Nobody with half a brain creates game for cheaters. It is always a matter of hacker -vs- developer.   I liken this to the cost of high availability, each 9 in the 99.9... % uptime is a 100x cost.  So I agree it is possible, but I don't agree that it is nearly as simple as being claimed.  Anyone with a web server on the internet knows that it is being attacked nearly every second of everyday by hackers worldwide and there is no real value in doing it.  Enter a game where gold is for sale for real cash.  The "better" hackers are all over it.

 

Remember when MS announced the indestructibility of Window 2K and put on the net as a challenge?  How many seconds did it take to crash it?  Not that I respect MS, but it is a case in point.  The more cocky you are, the quicker you go down.

 

To quote the most respected professor of my entire life "No matter how smart you are, there is always someone smarter."

 

Edit: I would like to add a quote from my first computer science professor, "if your code is bug free, it has not encountered the right data."
 

Edited by Tahru

                                                     SR8DSigTemp_Tahru.png

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I'd just like to point out that banks don't seem to have nearly as many problems with dupe bugs as gaming does. It's clearly possible to come up with a more effective response to duping than just throwing up your hands and saying "bugs lol"

Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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I'd just like to point out that banks don't seem to have nearly as many problems with dupe bugs as gaming does. It's clearly possible to come up with a more effective response to duping than just throwing up your hands and saying "bugs lol"

 

Nobody is throwing up their hands and saying bugs.  Banks spend billions to make their networks secure and even today they evaluate what is an acceptable loss.  For further information, a simple google search https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS602US602&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=bank+transactions+hacked

 

Nobody just surrenders, it is and will always be a reactive battle which all the money in the world cannot win.

 

One thing I found interesting about some super-hackers, much to the distress of the security nerds, is that their primary weapon is not the computer.  They use phone calls and other personal contacts to gain the needed information.  If there is money involved, they will find a way.

Edited by Tahru

                                                     SR8DSigTemp_Tahru.png

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