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Why Is Duping A Thing?


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Stealing money is an entirely different proposition from duping money. Care to find me a link to a story where the hackers created money out of thin air rather than raiding existing accounts?

Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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ACE quotes about what to expect regarding dupes in Crowfall :    

Then you are well aware of why duping occurs. While you can put in place mechanisms/procedures to rigorously test and identify bugs none of those methods are full proof. This is compounded by the fact

I'm not asking how it happens. My question is rhetorical. I keep reading people talking about how ACE is going to handle duping bugs. The assumption that duping is going to be an issue, at least early

Just wait till FB dupes an entire economy's worth of resources in three days or QFT gets some FC gear. 

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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Stealing money is an entirely different proposition from duping money. 

 

 

Firstly banks do not have the ability to create currency so what your asking for makes no sense. Secondly in the real world there is a practice called accounting that has developed in part because of "duping".

 

Duping money in real life is called counterfeiting BTW. 

 

 

Care to find me a link to a story where the hackers created money out of thin air rather than raiding existing accounts?

 

 

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Can+hackers+counterfeit%3F

 

 

About 400,000 articles for you to go though, enjoy!

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About 400,000 articles for you to go though, enjoy!

 

First two pages contain zero examples of electronic currency duping. LMGTFY sarcasm is much more effective if the returned search results actually contain the content you're describing. Try again!

Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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First two pages contain zero examples of electronic currency duping. LMGTFY sarcasm is much more effective if the returned search results actually contain the content you're describing. Try again!

 

Frankly I'm shocked you actually made it to the second page considering the 2nd link shows it's possible just not efficient to duplicate bitcoins which then can be converted to real currency. 

 

 

Also as Jah mentioned with the fractional reserve system, currency can be inflated legally. 

 

A nice link for you on how the system Jah was describing works since you seem to have a hard time finding things on your own.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking

Edited by Zandur
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Fractional reserve banking is the system working as intended. Philosophical discussions about whether the system itself is exploitative are an entirely different conversation from one about whether it is possible to find exploits in the system.

 

"bitcoins which then can be converted to real currency" is syntactically equal to "bitcoins are not real currency" and thus not relevant to this conversation.

 

I still have been presented with zero examples of hackers/exploiters duping money (or, if you prefer, "real currency") due to flaws in the electronic banking system. I thus continue to maintain, returning to the point, that it is clearly possible, given adequate discipline, to design an electronic economic system in such a way that duping is not an issue.

Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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"bitcoins which then can be converted to real currency" is syntactically equal to "bitcoins are not real currency" and thus not relevant to this conversation.

 

I still have been presented with zero examples of hackers/exploiters duping money (or, if you prefer, "real currency") due to flaws in the electronic banking system. I thus continue to maintain, returning to the point, that it is clearly possible, given adequate discipline, to design an electronic economic system in such a way that duping is not an issue.

 

 

If you had read the article you would have understood that turning bogus currency into real currency if one of the first things counterfeiters need to do to legitimize their gains. 

 

And as for your second point:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency

 

Frankly I feel if your just being trolley but If your actually being serious with your comments I apologize but if so I worry about the state of our educational system, this is basic stuff everyone should know.

 

What keeps major currencies in check is a strict audit process consisting of both internal and external audits, and while currency can be created it will throw the banks accounting out of balance, triggering an audit. This is why we are not completely being run rampant with fraudulent funds, and it's also a very expensive process to setup and maintain. 

 

So if while ACE can develop and probably has plans for an internal audit process it does not resolve the initial issue of duping (Not just in game money but items as well) in the first place because audits occur after the initial damage. 

 

This is why what the OP is suggesting is ridiculous and why so many people have told him as much because hackers wont care about consequences later on they just want to dupe now and if they get caught later big deal just get another account. In the world at large people go to Prison, they don't reroll. 

 

 

There is nothing more I can say to help you understand the issue since at this point if you still disagree then we will just have to agree to disagree. 

Edited by Zandur
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This, right here, is the false expectation that the preponderance of game developers is responsible for creating. Gamers have become so used to catastrophic bugs that they actually believe they're inevitable. What a sorry state this industry is in.

 

I'm hopeful that ACE will buck the trend.

 

There is nothing made by the hand of Man that is ever Perfect.  In software, regardless of Industry, there WILL be bugs.

 

This means you've failed to apply a proper filter to an input:  Gamers simply react to stimuli like any other animal.   In other words:  People for decades have known about bugs in software, the need to report the bug using a well designed bug report, which then goes to a customer service department who classifies and ranks Bugs, which in turn is followed by corrections / releases.

 

So, we know gamers are fatalistic about bugs, because they are human and encounter them in every game they play.  Because it's software made by people.  And it'll have fewer problems, or more problems based on the aptitude of the architects . . . but it will never be completely bug free.

 

But, being a "developer" of experience .  . . . you know all this.

 

Now lets talk about something that's actually worth talking about here:

 

In  your professional estimation what is the key attribute in software / database design in a game that opens the door to Duping?

 

Then, articulate for me if this attribute will be present in Crowfall in an exposed manner. (?)

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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I keep asking for examples of electronic currency duping and y'all keep responding with abuses which are not duping. I'm not contesting that people can steal electronic funds which already exist. I'm not contesting that people can trick people into exchanging funds which already exist for counterfeit goods of various kinds. What I'm saying is that it is not possible for hackers/exploiters to create electronic funds ex nihilo, which is what duping means. Nothing anybody has said in this thread has been at all on point to the question of duping in the banking system, aside from the political question of what fractional reserve banking really means.

 

If anyone has an example of "hackers log into bank computers and create $X out of thin air", I'd love to see it. Failing that, I continue to maintain that duping is not an issue in a well-constructed system.

Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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If anyone has an example of "hackers log into bank computers and create $X out of thin air", I'd love to see it. Failing that, I continue to maintain that duping is not an issue in a well-constructed system.

Lol.  That last statement, "well-construct system", kind of leaves the door open for you to slam it shut if someone throws an example out there.  I'll give it a shot though, and took the easy road and simply Googled exactly what you said you wanted, "hackers create money out of thin air."  Not to my surprise I was met with 100's of examples...

 

Enjoy

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Lol.  That last statement, "well-construct system", kind of leaves the door open for you to slam it shut if someone throws an example out there.

 

No, I'm more intellectually honest than that. If my argument is that bank systems are not vulnerable to duping attacks, then I cannot turn around and say that a bank which falls victim to a duping attack is not a true Scotsman.

 

And, using your search link, I found at least one example of exactly that: http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/09/technology/security/cyber-bank-heist/index.html?iid=EL

 

 

The thieves hacked into the banks' systems to drastically increase the amount available on the cards, and then used the information about the cards to withdraw money at banks around the world.

 

So, I withdraw my assertion that bank systems as a class are adequately secure against duping attacks; I won't even quibble that none of the the banks which were attacked in that story were Western, first-world banks. Scribbles gets a Δ, everyone else gets a "see how much more productive the conversation is when you respond directly to the actual points being made?"

Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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I keep asking for examples of electronic currency duping and y'all keep responding with abuses which are not duping. I'm not contesting that people can steal electronic funds which already exist. I'm not contesting that people can trick people into exchanging funds which already exist for counterfeit goods of various kinds. What I'm saying is that it is not possible for hackers/exploiters to create electronic funds ex nihilo, which is what duping means. Nothing anybody has said in this thread has been at all on point to the question of duping in the banking system, aside from the political question of what fractional reserve banking really means.

 

If anyone has an example of "hackers log into bank computers and create $X out of thin air", I'd love to see it. Failing that, I continue to maintain that duping is not an issue in a well-constructed system.

 

Lol.  That last statement, "well-construct system", kind of leaves the door open for you to slam it shut if someone throws an example out there.  I'll give it a shot though, and took the easy road and simply Googled exactly what you said you wanted, "hackers create money out of thin air."  Not to my surprise I was met with 100's of examples...

 

Enjoy

 

I think there are 2 things to understand here. 

 

1. In the real world there is no such thing as a free lunch. An old saying but a true one. Even if hackers "duped" bank funds someone will be left holding the bag.  If those duped funds were used to purchase something, then the banks and or credit card companies will be on the hook for making the vendor whole. In the game world it is up to the developers to follow the duped money trail, which depending on the level of logging could be very difficult. Will they roll back all transactions where the duped gold/resources took place? If there is one thing players hate worse than dupes are server roll backs. Awesome I just wasted the last x hours because of X. In the past the studio was more likely to roll back the entire server as opposed to surgically going after the duped gold/items. If there is no in game mail system you might be able to isolate the duped items faster than you could if there was. Is there a data analyst working 24/7 monitoring in game transactions looking for anomalies and investigating them? It is easier to set up metrics to look for duping than it is to 100% test and eliminate dupes via perfect code. While a statement made previously by someone in this thread may not be absolutely true, the cost for each additional level of precision in 99.99999% is exponentially more expensive to ensure perfect code, the statement holds water to a certain degree.

 

2. Do we consider manipulations in the transaction system to be a dupe? There is an old story of a guy who cashed a "fake" check that he got in the mail and the bank actually credited his account with $95k and had not bothered to reclaim those funds even after several weeks. What about scenarios where players identify a vendor/item combination where you can buy and item and then sell it back for more than the purchase price? Or even simpler, find an abundant resource that sells for an inflated price compared to other equally abundant resources. 

 

If number 2 is considered a dupe then there are plenty of real world examples of duping. I would always say that in the gaming world it is probably much more common to exploit a transaction and end up with something for "free".

 

 

I keep asking for examples of electronic currency duping and y'all keep responding with abuses which are not duping. I'm not contesting that people can steal electronic funds which already exist. I'm not contesting that people can trick people into exchanging funds which already exist for counterfeit goods of various kinds. What I'm saying is that it is not possible for hackers/exploiters to create electronic funds ex nihilo, which is what duping means.

 

Jihan has a point here, however I think it is a very complicated issue. Take for example a case where people are able to bypass restrictions on withdrawals from ATMS. http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/cba-customers-used-facebook-to-spread-work-about-free-atm-cash/story-fnda1bsz-1226442262960

No the crooks involved here are not "creating" new money but the limiting factor here is the amount of money available to dupe/steal is limited by what is in the machine. What would happen if the ATM actually printed the money on the spot? Then theoretically the crooks could in fact steal exponentially more money than is in the market place. Would this be considered duping then? Our reserve system is a complicated mess and it would take someone much more knowledgeable on the subject to explain how an what is truly duping in the real world but to some degree or another manipulations of the system exist which allow crooks to get items/resources which they should not have.

 

Maybe to a purist the ATM scenario is not considered duping, but in my mind it is. It is hard to compare fully digital game worlds to real world system, so it is a bit of an apples to oranges type of comparison but for the most part it boils down to being able to access funds/resources which you are not entitled too. As is often the case in the real world most of these funds/resources are finite to a certain degree whereas in the digital world that is most often not the case.

 

Could a CW be programmed to where it knows that only X amount of each resource is theoretically possible considering 100% consumption/retrieval of the node? Yes. Can the CW be programmed to log what percentage of resources were consumed/retrieved? Yes. Can the CW be programmed to perform a sum check against the theoretical maximum versus consumed/retrieved to identify any anomolies? Again, Yes. All of these things and many more can be done to help track down exploits in the system, but again it all comes down to logging of the data and being able to properly analyze it. Depending on the amount of resources available to the devs they could put check sums on all players and swiftly throw down  the ban hammer for all players blatantly exploiting the system. The question becomes how fast can they identify those players and address the issue before it becomes a  major disruption to the game.

 

I would love to swim in the data available to the devs and take a break from mountains of oil and gas data I deal with on a regular basis. You would be surprised how often I encounter platforms/wells which show negative production reported by some of my clients. 

 

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Edited by Verot
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 "see how much more productive the conversation is when you respond directly to the actual points being made?"

 

Firstly, If you were really interested in a productive conversation you could have typed that into google yourself instead of being asked to be spoon fed information that is a simple search away, and despite that you did not even address the bitcoin example which I raised. 

 

Secondly, the whole conversation about real world money is completely irrelevant to duping in Crowfall. There is no way ACE is going to have the resources to implement all the controls needed to provide a system even close to the controls that are in place in the real world.

 

 

Thirdly,

 

I'd just like to point out that banks don't seem to have nearly as many problems with dupe bugs as gaming does. It's clearly possible to come up with a more effective response to duping than just throwing up your hands and saying "bugs lol"

 

 

The fact that you were trying to compare the security of a game development company to a financial institution is ludicrous. The impact of counterfeiting in the real world compared to the impact of duping in a game is not even something you can realistically compare on one scale. If ACE was to fail they just go out of business, I don't think I need to point out what happens when currencies fail. 

 

And finally the OP's original question was about stopping duping in the first place and chastising the developers for not being able to prevent this. Every realistic solution such as what Verot just stated is reliant upon logging and auditing the issue after the fact because preventing all bugs that could cause a dupe in the first place is unrealistic and impractical. 

Edited by Zandur
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Hopefully ArtCraft knows their ACID. I'd like to say there's no excuse for duping bugs in something so item dependent as an MMO, but I have no real idea of how much it would cost to build a transactional system on par with that of a bank.

Deploy an RDBMS server to store all your items and character stats. Learn to call it with proper transaction isolation.

Enjoy 30 years of software history and a lot more performances nowadays. That's how much it cost.

 

What cost more is hand rolling your storage facility or choose some NoSQL poorly made socks and then spend days to try to ensure some form of consistency.

 

But from the "one guild per account" videos it seems they have chosen to use an RDMS. I just it is something like PostgreSQL or Oracle. Not MySQL and its forks.

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Dupe bugs in video games may be catastrophic to the game's economy but that in no way correlates to the severity of the oversight in the code.

A dupe bug also does not necessarily have to occur in the transaction verification system.

For example. In SWG there was an issue with the character saving system in 1 line of code that allowed a dupe bug to occur. It wasn't even bad code, it was just a placement issue.

Edited by Dameon
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