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The Difference Between Chess And Hungry Hungry Hippos (Or: Why More Twitch Is Not Always Better)


triforcer
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At the dawn of the commercial Internet, online chess was probably one of the first "doable" games.  No fancy graphics, no need for fast reflexes or ping times- you played what you could play with the technology you had.

 

But the Internet got better!  Our laptops are now 10X more powerful than the desktops of 15 years ago, no more dialup, fancy graphics- we can do ANYTHING!  And that liberated us from the tyranny of "old" chess.  You may remember when the entire game was redesigned so that when a piece landed on a square with another piece, we were transported to an FPS arena and whoever could headshot each the other piece while bunnyhopping won.  Kasparov left the game in disgrace when xXpawnUXx was crowned world champion.  

 

...actually, that did not happen.  Why?  Why didn't chess disappear when we had the technology to make it more twitch?  Because chess is a game that is not "improved" by better latency or graphics.  It is slow-moving and strategic.  It did not go away when computing power increased because it is a fundamentally different TYPE of game than an FPS.  I begrudge nobody their enjoyment of the various FPS iterations of Hungry Hungry Hippos that are popular, but you can't claim that that type of gameplay is "objectively" better than chess just because it is twitch.  

 

I am a mid-30s gamer, and the only "FPS" I've ever played is TF2.  I can't rocket jump and kill from across the map, or headshot a moving scout with the sniper- all of the reflex classes are beyond me.  But I can play a spy tactically, pick priority targets, and strike at an optimal moment to help my team.  Before that, I was a huge BF1942 fan- again, a "twitch" game but one where the battle was already won or lost prior to opening fire because of matchups, choice of loadouts, and tactical elements.

 

I know Crowfall is not "full" twitch.  But the recent combat reveals have me very worried, because it seems to be more much twitch than I visualized.  Honestly, if I was emperor of ArtCraft, I'd make a truly radical design decision- going back to all (or almost all) tab-targeting.  I would make the classes rock-paper-scissors, and make class and loadout choice more determinative of PvP outcome than the ability to use Red Bull-fueled reflexes to bunnyhop your way out of trouble.

 

I know that's not the way Artcraft is going, but I just wanted to say on behalf of myself and other older gamers:  give us at least one or two classes where we can play chess instead of Hungry Hungry Hippos.   I am really, really hoping one of the stealth classes (Fae Assassin, Ranger, Guincean Duelist) or Disciplines (for example, Thief stealing a bloodstone) allows us to sit back, think tactically, and kill/contribute in a meaningful and mostly-not-twitch way (and to those who say "crafting won't be twitch," I am talking about combat roles).  The bunnyhoppers will always go to the next, shinier game in a short period of time, but if you can make the "chess" of MMO pvp you'll have a loyal audience forever. 

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I don't imagine support casting and pet deployment will be that difficult, and I have little confidence that they'll be shipping anything like the current offering.

 

Hopefully you have an enjoyable role.

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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The most competitive FPS games aren't hungry hungry hippos either... I could nitpick trying to categorize something twitchy closer to hungry hungry hippos, because chess itself has faster versions that change the dynamics even though the actual rules of the game are left unchanged....

 

Twitch does not mean less strategical and/or less tactical depth... you can look to competitive RTS to see that

 

That being said they will definitely have classes of varying levels of mechanical difficulty though I believe if they have any class that plays as easy as tab-targeting they will have failed.

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Twitch does not mean less strategical and/or less tactical depth... you can look to competitive RTS to see that

It seems like you really just know Hungry Hippos and Chess. You seem to have little information about Crowfall either. Facts in your post are just plain wrong. Duelist are not a stelth archetyp, bunny hopping is not a thing because of the animation lock. You are plain out saying that FPS games are worse then your precious chess but they arent. Not a FPS fan myself I cannot speak for the strategic element of that but played quite a lot of MOBA's and learning from a lot of fighting game players I can at least highlight the tactical value of them. A strategic and/or chess approch will not work of a MMO and never ever for a game like Crowfall. Crowfall should have a deep and tactical combat, reacting to your opponents actions and knowing which animation got which result. Just countering with a build a gear would be too flat for most players. Crowfall will be a great game without being chess. Paper scissors stone would be good if you can change your stone to a scissor (like in RTS) but this is a MMO where you cannot change your stone to a scissor.

 

Maybe a cargame like Magic or Hearthstone would be better for you. No real mechanics just you and your build. If you dont like "Hungry Hippos" *cringe* you can just let it be. Nobody forces you to play it.

Edited by IamMe
 

I AM ME!
I love you all.

 

 

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Just because player actions are sped up does not make CF, hungry hungry hippos. If players are simply slamming their heads into the keyboard to spam skills then they are likely to cause as much damage to their own team as they are to their opponents. I'm having a hard time taking this post seriously because you figuratively spit in the developers faces with your bit about "if I were emperor". If you have such great ideas and want that style of game, then get a loan from a bank/vc/kickstarter and make your glorious chess style mmo. Maybe it can be turned based like the older Fallout games. Give players 100% information related to opponents and their states as well as information on all of their cooldowns, so that you can be force fed information by the GUI instead of having to pay attention

Edited by Verot
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You could be a great tactical player and fail at CF because your reaction time isn't fast enough.

 

Likewise...

 

You could have lightning fast reflexes and fail at CF because you can't make appropriate decisions fast enough.

 

If you are too slow to act or think you will struggle in this environment, however I think those who think slowly will be at more of a disadvantage generally speaking, though the OP seems to believe the opposite.  But his really is a false comparison, because few games are either entirely twitch or entirely strategic, even competition chess has a timer and you can win by running your opponent's timer out.

Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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... give us at least one or two classes where we can play chess instead of Hungry Hungry Hippos.   I am really, really hoping one of the stealth classes (Fae Assassin, Ranger, Guincean Duelist) or Disciplines (for example, Thief stealing a bloodstone) allows us to sit back, think tactically, and kill/contribute in a meaningful and mostly-not-twitch way (and to those who say "crafting won't be twitch," I am talking about combat roles).

 

Pretty sure it's what they plan for the game, have some archetypes that fit with several types of gameplay and controls. We don't know yet if projectiles will end up being targeted with free aim, aim assistance or other combination of options. My hope is that some slower projectiles will have some kind of assistance, while others rely only on player skills.

 

I expect some archetypes to be less twitchy, like the Druid, the Forgemaster, Frostweaver... and some more, like the Ranger and the assassin.

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Lets not forget that OP was asking for Rock/Paper/Scissors archetypes which completely contradicts what the devs had said they are going to do. Either the OP has not bothered to read any of the FAQs or watch any of the dev chat/videos or he is trolling either way pure silliness.

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Lets not forget that OP was asking for Rock/Paper/Scissors archetypes which completely contradicts what the devs had said they are going to do. Either the OP has not bothered to read any of the FAQs or watch any of the dev chat/videos or he is trolling either way pure silliness.

 

From the OP : "I know that's not the way Artcraft is going, but I just wanted to say on behalf of myself and other older gamers:  give us at least one or two classes where we can play chess instead of Hungry Hungry Hippos."

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Actually, some games, even Tera I think, rank classes by difficulty of play.  I don't think it is at all outside the scope of what is reasonable to vary the "twitch level" of archetypes to allow for older gamers, or even those with disabilities. 

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Beyond their inherent awesomeness one of the big reasons I want to play a werewolf is they are supposed to have a fast movement speed and are very likely to have high damage/wide cone attacks. In the kind of small group/skirmish based fights I'm most interested in they will probably wreck face because where some other classes are trying to carefully aim attacks I'll be charging in frothing at the mouth and flinging out attacks wildly.

 

That's actually how I fought in Darkfall too. AoE spells and a greatsword. In the fights that I talk about that I won while heavily outnumbered I wasn't carefully landing arrows, I was going f***ing berserk. My reflexes are average at best but my extremely aggressive playsyle took them off guard.

 

Of course my playsyle isn't quite so effective when you are in melee with allies all around you and I'm wildly swinging at whatever is in front of my face. That's where that archer who can carefully land their arrows is WAY more useful than I am.

 

In other words, find your strengths and weaknesses and play to your element.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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I'm still hoping for more twitch than Tera, which was fairly(extremely) easy to play. Play whatever class appeals to you and you'll likely get used to it fairly quickly, this isn't going to be Counterstrike FFS. But it's also not going to be Chess, you have to do something y'know, click some fvcking buttons, move your fvcking mouse. Huge design flaw if they make some archetypes "chess" oriented.

Edited by Sciocco

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It seems like you really just know Hungry Hippos and Chess. You seem to have little information about Crowfall either. Facts in your post are just plain wrong. Duelist are not a stelth archetyp, bunny hopping is not a thing because of the animation lock. You are plain out saying that FPS games are worse then your precious chess but they arent. Not a FPS fan myself I cannot speak for the strategic element of that but played quite a lot of MOBA's and learning from a lot of fighting game players I can at least highlight the tactical value of them. A strategic and/or chess approch will not work of a MMO and never ever for a game like Crowfall. Crowfall should have a deep and tactical combat, reacting to your opponents actions and knowing which animation got which result. Just countering with a build a gear would be too flat for most players. Crowfall will be a great game without being chess. Paper scissors stone would be good if you can change your stone to a scissor (like in RTS) but this is a MMO where you cannot change your stone to a scissor.

 

Maybe a cargame like Magic or Hearthstone would be better for you. No real mechanics just you and your build. If you dont like "Hungry Hippos" *cringe* you can just let it be. Nobody forces you to play it.

 

You took his post too personally.  Step back, be objective, relate to his viewpoint.

 

He wasn't rude or an jack-arse.  Be thankful you ran into ONE of those types in todays sludge-mire of over-entitled Gerbil-kins mommy and daddy love having out of their hair by leaving them alone in their rooms occupied online with the "paragons" of humanity at their disposal between their formative years of 8 to 35.  (heh-heh).

 

Warfare has been around for thousands of years.  Don't believe me, duck your head out of your bedroom and read a book or two.  Strategy and tactics have always been part of that . . . also found in simulated combat in MMOs.  However, we do see more and more "themeparking" of MMOs nowadays stripping away strategy to cater to FPS twitch-bunny style combat.

 

Generally speaking, the OPs post is worth reading and thinking over.

 

Myself, I'm going to be watching the development of the combat system closely to see how both of these warfare dynamics are woven together, that being strategy and planning versus twitch-baby shove players together in a barroom button mash.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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