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Durin

Hunger Dome Legionnaire Discussion

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As a Legionnaire fan, I thought it would be worthwhile to discuss the pros and cons of the archetype now that we have some decent game footage (and now that some testers have got to try the ol' horse-man out). 

 

I am not in the pre-alpha, so my comments are based purely on Twitch and You Tube vids.  Also, I realize that often there is a great deal of lag going on during testing.  Here is what I see:

 

Pros:

1. The heal is useful, while not being overly powerful.

2. The speed buff is nice, but not excessive.

3. AOE knockback seems quite useful in several situations.  However, testers seem to be using this somewhat randomly at times for something to do, or added dps, or I dunno... 

4. Rear kick, while apparently difficult to pull off, is great when it connects.

5. Decent survivability, though a lot of this has to do with running away a little faster than most. 

 

Cons:

1. Damage looks poor--lowest of all three current archetypes being tested.

2. Hard to steer--turning seems to be an issue, as well as navigating narrow areas.

3. Not as massive as I thought it would be--both Knights and Confessors pushing the Legionnaire around (the Knight's chain pull seems to fling them a great distance).

4. Rear kick--very difficult to pull off, usually wiffing wildly

5. Cone attack seems ineffective

6. Seems too fragile for such an imposing beast. 

 

As of right now, based on the videos I have watched, my biggest concern/complaint for the Legionnaire is its inadequate mass.  I was really hoping that the centaur would be a force by virtue of his large, heavy body.  They already have the draw backs of turning and being in the way a lot.  I really do think they need to carry more weight and be pushing people around, with the exception perhaps of the blocking Knight.  I am very interested in what other people think, especially those who got to play with the Legionnaire a bit in the Hunger Dome.  Thanks.   

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Stop to attack is the tree by which we hang

 

I assume you mean that to attack you have to stop moving forward, and therefore your target simply just kites along in front of you? 


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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I thought the Legionnaire was supposed to have a charge with a wheel left or right, but either it is really hard to pick out, or testers are not using it.  It would seem this ability would help with the stop to attack issue.


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Cons:

1. Damage looks poor--lowest of all three current archetypes being tested.  

 

Somebody has to be at the bottom of the DPS rankings; it probably makes sense that it's the support class. Why is this a con?


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Somebody has to be at the bottom of the DPS rankings; it probably makes sense that it's the support class. Why is this a con?

Because they are on the bottom of the DPS rankings.


 

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Because they are on the bottom of the DPS rankings.

 

Why is them being on the bottom of the DPS rankings a con? Would the game be better if the confessor or the knight were on the bottom of the DPS rankings? If so, why?


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Because they are on the bottom of the DPS rankings.

 

If DPS is the only thing that counts guess the majority of Archetypes is useless and the game should consist only of maximum dps dd archetypes. 


You get the wolves...lots of wolves...and sheep that wear armor and have developed an appetite for blood soaked grass - dubanka

Even insects smell good when roasted - a random confessor

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Why is them being on the bottom of the DPS rankings a con? Would the game be better if the confessor or the knight were on the bottom of the DPS rankings? If so, why?

 

As to your second question--no.  However, why should a front line so-so buffer/healer do any less damage than a tank?  It may be different if they were a dedicated healer at range, but the Legionnaire is not.  He is up there right alongside the Knight and is forced to fight in melee in order to build his resource.  It isn't as if he is in any less danger or is going to see any less action. 

 

Something like this seems appropriate: glass canon dps>melee dps>tank AND front line support>ranged support.

 

EDIT:

In addition the Legionnaire is A GIANT HORSE-MAN WITH A POLEARM for goodness sake.  It makes absolutely no sense to make him into a mincing strafe-healer with no punch.  :rolleyes:

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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The no quarter chain dishes out some pretty significant damage. I also found charging confessors into walls then beating the snot out of them with left mouse to be pretty effective. I'm going to spend a lot of time testing them this week, because I do agree that they need the most work, so hopefully I'll be able to come back with some more info for you guys.

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3) Knights should have rage and Legios should have mana. Knights actually have the best of both worlds, they have mana that regens AND get mana back per swing. Legios are the support/healer class and it just makes more sense to me that they have mana and knights need to swing and work up their rage for their incredibly powerful abilities. They are on the front line.

 

The above suggestion comes from Obs LoD in from the Testing forum.  I wont respond to it there because I am not a tester (I don't know that I could respond there).  However, I do want to comment on it. 

 

I disagree that Legios should have mana.  My reasoning is simple--the Legio is not meant to be back line support.  Legios should be encouraged (even required) to be up in the thick of things in order to function at full capacity.  The last thing I want to see is for a giant, intimidating centaur to become a wet nurse for the rest of his team--mincing about like a dedicated healer from other MMOs.  The Legio, as I understand the archetype, is supposed to be modeled off of a battlefield leader ("bred for war" remember?), much like the old Warrior Priests of WAR.  Anything that further removes him from this position is detrimental to theme and design of the archetype.     

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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I suspect this is exactly the reason they were given the rage mechanic in the first place.

Yes--and why I do not want to see it go away. Here we have these mean looking, massive centaurs equipped like centurions--some of the most BA warriors in history--potentially prancing about like My Little Pony and healing with the power of friendship :blink: .  NO THANK YOU!

 

EDIT:

When reading Obs post again (and watching a few of his videos--one of which is titled "This is why knights are OP"), he is directly contrasting the Legio to the Knight.  He seems, at least in part, to be making the argument that the Knight is OP in comparison to the Legio.  Obs himself seemed to play both the Knight and the Legio well, so I will absolutely defer to his experience.  One tactic that I saw Obs using effectively, lag permitting, was hit and run.  It was a sort of strange melee kite that makes sense, I guess, when you are a playing a centaur.  It was effective because he was able to avoid most of the Knights more damaging attacks whilst dishing out some damage as he ran by.  It set up a very long combat, however. 

 

If the Legio is weak in comparison to the knight, changing the way that it fills up its resource bar is only one way to address the problem.  I believe it is problematic solution based on what I have posted in this thread.  I would much rather see a base increase to damage for the Legio (as I have suggested prior that his damage should be no less than a tank's).  Also, and I know that I am repeating this a lot, the Legio should be more resistant to the chain pull and the charge push of the Knight, because HE IS A GIANT HORSE-MAN.  Thanks! :)         

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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I suspect this is exactly the reason they were given the rage mechanic in the first place.

 

The Warrior Priest from Warhammer Online is a great example of this.  Their intent was to be front-line healing.  They had to beat on things to generate the resource necessary for the most powerful heals.

 

However, their gear was mistakenly given enough generation stat on it, so they stood in the back healing.  And could do it better than the actual back-line healers.


 

Sorry you turned into a two-bit carebear whose feelings get hurt over forum banter.

 

 

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They don't need more damage. They are not supposed to be a damage dealing class. They need more effective support capabilities. That's their primary role and they don't really feel like they do much of it right now. Their existence in a group should be more noticeable and they should be able to really turn the tide of battle when you have one as opposed to when you don't.

 

Right now they look weak and in comparison to the other two, nearly useless. Also the running in and out tactic looks pretty lame, too. They shouldn't have to do that. They should have an easier time staying in place, avoiding damage, and constantly hitting their opponents.

 

Here are their current capabilities but I feel like we don't see many of these skills really being used, or at least in the right way:

 - Melee combo chain AoE heal (2nd hit on No Quarter)

 - Basic combo chain AoE mana regen and AoE heal regen (1st and 3rd hit respectively)

 - Larger AoE heal and attack buff on a cooldown

 - Group speed buff and self impairing effects cleanse

 - AoE knockback

 - Mid range movement speed reduction

 - Two charge skills

 - Debuff chain that either increases physical damage enemy takes or decreases damage they deal (3rd hit on No Quarter)

 

These skills make me think they have the beginnings of an interesting support class in the right hands. Why do none of them play like that? I'm curious how good they would be if they did.

 

For reference - http://wiki.thedregs.net/wiki/Legionnaire_Powers

Edited by Leiloni

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They don't need more damage. They are not supposed to be a damage dealing class. They need more effective support capabilities. That's their primary role and they don't really feel like they do much of it right now. Their existence in a group should be more noticeable and they should be able to really turn the tide of battle when you have one as opposed to when you don't.

 

Right now they look weak and in comparison to the other two, nearly useless. Also the running in and out tactic looks pretty lame, too. They shouldn't have to do that. They should have an easier time staying in place, avoiding damage, and constantly hitting their opponents.

 

Also, they have the capability to constantly spam AoE heal and mana melee combo attacks along with the occasional long CD AoE heal/attack buff skill. Those in conjunction with the occasional knockback and group move speed buff makes me think they have the beginnings of an interesting support class in the right hands. And the heal combos also put debuffs on the enemy players in the 3rd parts of the chain that either reduces the damage they do or increases the damage they take, so that looks pretty damn useful too. Why do none of them play like that? I'm curious how good they would be if they did.

 

For reference - http://wiki.thedregs.net/wiki/Legionnaire_Powers

 

I am not sure that they do less damage than the knight--it simply appears that way.  Tell me, why should they do less damage than a tank?  Consider this:  they are not back line support, they are front line support with a resource that requires melee combat.  However, damage, to me, is secondary to the theme of the Legionnaire.  Read the lore, look a the model--this is not a wizened priest or a sparkly fairy--this is a huge, powerful, war-orientated archetype and should be developed in that way.  They are support--so what?  Does that mean that they must be the equivalent of the holy priest in WoW?  Nope.  Again, the only other class that I can personally think of that could be an inspiration for the Legionnaire is the Warrior Priest of WAR.  The Legionnaire is a battlefield leader.

 

As far as running in and out of combat, I'll have to disagree that this is a bad thing.  I'll admit at first I was not sure about it, but the more I think on it the more appropriate it seems.  They are a mobile, cavalry-esque archetype.  Charging in and out out combat to deliver damaged, CC and support makes sense.  I support developing the Legio along those lines.  Their power lies in their charge and then their ability not get stuck in combat.  They can wheel and return to supply a buff or heal, and then smack some Confessor around only to burst out of combat again to repeat the process.  It makes them very unique and is in line with the theme. 


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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As far as running in and out of combat, I'll have to disagree that this is a bad thing.  I'll admit at first I was not sure about it, but the more I think on it the more appropriate it seems.  They are a mobile, cavalry-esque archetype.  Charging in and out out combat to deliver damaged, CC and support makes sense.  I support developing the Legio along those lines.  Their power lies in their charge and then their ability not get stuck in combat.  They can wheel and return to supply a buff or heal, and then smack some Confessor around only to burst out of combat again to repeat the process.  It makes them very unique and is in line with the theme. 

 

I disagree. So many of their best skills are hidden in combo chains. If they can't reliably spam combos over and over they're losing a lot of their utility.

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I disagree. So many of their best skills are hidden in combo chains. If they can't reliably spam combos over and over they're losing a lot of their utility.

 

Do you disagree that they are a "mobile, cavalry-esque archetype"? Perhaps, they are not meant to "spam combos over and over."  It could be that they could be tweaked to make them a bit more hit and run as to avoid having to sacrifice utility.  Regardless, if you watch Oberon or Obs LoD play the Legionnaire, you'll notice that they do run in and out a lot, and they are often very effective doing so.  


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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