Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Durin

Hunger Dome Legionnaire Discussion

Recommended Posts

I disagree. So many of their best skills are hidden in combo chains. If they can't reliably spam combos over and over they're losing a lot of their utility.

 

Not to mention that if they can't also get off some basic attack chains they won't have any rage to work with and they won't manabuff either.

 

With that said, if Obs and Steven are making it work as well as they have been, obviously there's a way to play the lego adequately well.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you disagree that they are a "mobile, cavalry-esque archetype"? Perhaps, they are not meant to "spam combos over and over."  It could be that they could be tweaked to make them a bit more hit and run as to avoid having to sacrifice utility.  Regardless, if you watch Oberon or Obs LoD play the Legionnaire, you'll notice that they do run in and out a lot, and they are often very effective doing so.  

 

I've seen that but I think it's a necessity of the way combat currently works. I don't think it's intentional by the developers nor good game design. With the way skills are designed, in order to keep up debuffs, actually keep up enough rage to use anything, keep up that tiny instant melee heal, etc. they need to be hitting frequently or else those skills won't be very effective. Those skills aren't powerful enough on their own to be used less often. Why put in a heal on the 2nd hit of a combo chain that only heals a measly 40-80 + 30% weapon damage - when most skills are several hundred plus much more weapon damage -  if you don't expect it to be used often?

 

What benefit would they get from running in and out if that's the intended design? All running away does is help you avoid damage at the cost of all your supportive ability. And unless you're providing constant heals/mana/buffs/debuffs/cc to your team, then you're not enough of a nuisance for the enemy to care enough to even chase you when you run.

Edited by Leiloni

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've seen that but I think it's a necessity of the way combat currently works. I don't think it's intentional by the developers nor good game design. With the way skills are designed, in order to keep up debuffs, actually keep up enough rage to use anything, keep up that tiny instant melee heal, etc. they need to be hitting frequently or else those skills won't be very effective. Those skills aren't powerful enough on their own to be used less often. Why put in a heal on the 2nd hit of a combo chain that only heals a measly 40-80 + 30% weapon damage - when most skills are several hundred plus much more weapon damage -  if you don't expect it to be used often?

 

What benefit would they get from running in and out if that's the intended design? All running away does is help you avoid damage at the cost of all your supportive ability. And unless you're providing constant heals/mana/buffs/debuffs/cc to your team, then you're not enough of a nuisance for the enemy to care enough to even chase you when you run.

 

You are assuming that support in CF functions like it might in a raid team in WoW.  100% up-time on buffs and debuffs is probably not intended--just as "fire hose" healing is expressly not intended.  Surviving, buy running away and then rejoining the fight, lets you continue to use your support abilities (death, of course, makes you useless).  This means you are looking at a new kind of support class--one that is not just about massaging your group via buffs and heals. The Legionnaire also CCs, charges and fights!  I am more than okay with this--in fact, I think it is brilliant.    

 

The biggest draw back to giving the Legionnaire the title of "support" is that people are going to bring expectations to the archetype.  They are then going to be vocal detractors of the design of the archetype, because it is not what they expected or what they have a history of enjoying.  I, for one, will constantly advocate that they keep the archetype in line with the original design and theme of Legionnaire.  This is not to say that I want the centaur to be under powered at all.  It is to say that the uniqueness of the archetype is its strong point.  If he is weak we will point that out through testing and ACE should/will address that.       


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're missing my point. I love the CC, I never said it wasn't useful. But some of their skills won't be with the way you're suggesting they play and you haven't given any reasons why that run away style of play is actually a good thing, or what we might get out of it that we can't otherwise. And my thoughts aren't in reference to any tab target game. I haven't play tab target games in years. I'm referring to what I'm used to just from other action combat games and how it sounds like it should work here based on the abilities that ACE has already given to the Legionnaire. This is not my personal preference, I am just analyzing the current skillset.

 

But sure, go to the WoW insult because you have nothing better to say. I don't think I've played that game in 6 or 7 years. Have you?

Edited by Leiloni

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're missing my point. I love the CC, I never said it wasn't useful. But some of their skills won't be with the way you're suggesting they play and you haven't given any reasons why that run away style of play is actually a good thing, or what we might get out of it that we can't otherwise. And my thoughts aren't in reference to any tab target game. I haven't play tab target games in years. I'm referring to what I'm used to just from other action combat games and how it sounds like it should work here based on the abilities that ACE has already given to the Legionnaire. This is not my personal preference, I am just analyzing the current skillset.

 

But sure, go to the WoW insult because you have nothing better to say. I don't think I've played that game in 6 or 7 years. Have you?

 

I haven't given any reasons?  I just did--support in Crowfall MAY not be meant to play out like it does in other MMOs, tab target or otherwise.  Again, "run away style of play" is academic when you consider the nature of the archetype.  It appears that you see the Legionnaire as support primarily.  I do not (anecdotally, the Legionnaire was actually considered DPS for a time).  He is a centaur; he is "bred for war"; he is mobile; he is massive.  These things are what Legionnaire archetype springs out of, and any support characteristics he has must take into account these aspects of his core theme. 

 

The "running away" allows the Legio to survive (it's not really running away--it is more like cavalry running through the ranks of the enemy and then wheeling to do it again).  Again, in PvP, survival is the number one concern.  If he is dead, he cant CC, buff, debuff, heal or DPS.  This sets up multiple charges for the Legio.  He plunges in to combat at just the right time apply that critical heal or speed buff, and then darts out again so he does not get mired in combat.  It is a pretty unique and exciting design for an MMO class.  It may have a higher than average skill ceiling because of the level of awareness you will need to posses to master the archetype, and this is a good thing!  Perhaps, they could increase the amount of rage generated per swing to support this emerging game play or even decrease the rate at which it is spend or decays (this would keep him from having to be stuck in for too long to use his skills)?  Therefore, I don't think he needs to be fundamentally redesigned.  Through the process of testing, they can tweak (as I stated before) the numbers to increase the effectiveness of his mobile game play as necessary.

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly it sounds like you're talking about how you want it to play vs how it's currently designed. Look at the skills available, what they do, where they hit, how much rage they cost, cooldowns, other effects, etc. and it's pretty obvious what they were going for.

 

I mean shoot let's look at the basics - they are a rage hog and need to Basic Attack to get it back because that Rage CD is not enough and is used up in a few hits. Their CC skills use up a poorly made socks ton of rage (20-25% of their rage pool) as does the Charge combo attack chain (also 20 rage). Yet the No Quarter Combo is the cheapest skill they have at 10 rage, and has a ton of support effects hidden in the chain, and their free and very necessary Basic Attack chain not only gives them rage but gives their team mana. 

 

It's mean to be a frontline support that keeps up health and mana of the group with constant combo attacks, applies the debuffs where they can, uses the long CD heal/attack buff usually on CD (which I'd like to see fixed so they can actually make a strategic decision to use it for the attack buff and not be forced to use the heal all the time), and uses CC skills strategically where necessary to aid their team either offensively or defensively. Speaking of that attack buff, it's a 12 second buff and I don't know the cooldown of that heal/buff skill but it doesn't look to be too much longer than that.

 

They have charges not because they're supposed to run around but because they needed CC for this class and charges fit into the theme of a horse man. If you think about it, charging into your enemy - when they fix the character controls to be client side and fix any physics issues - is going to be a fantastic form of CC. Not a great way to run away. And that speed buff is a group buff not a self buff, so it's not meant just to make the Legionnaire faster. It's meant to support the group, likely to get them into and out of combat quickly because it's the only rage free skill they have so it's meant to be used when they don't have any rage to spare.

 

I'm not calling it a support because that's it's name, it is painfully clear that it was built to be a frontline support and every single skill they have points towards that role. 

 

Edit: Watching people do this "run away" playstyle is awful and painfully apparent that it's not intended. They use the same 3 or 4 attacks and ignore the majority of their skillset. They spend most of the time running around spamming that big heal, trying to attack people and missing half the time (this I think is the character control problem), trying to use the AoE KD and missing cause it's too long of an animation and they're running in to use it instead of already being in the enemy's face, pop rage CD and run some more. It's more of a backline healer than a frontline supporter the way its being played right now.

Edited by Leiloni

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly it sounds like you're talking about how you want it to play vs how it's currently designed. Look at the skills available, what they do, where they hit, how much rage they cost, cooldowns, other effects, etc. and it's pretty obvious what they were going for.

I've watched many videos.  I may not be seeing the same types of problems with the Legio using their abilities as you apparently are.  There are some problem with hitting (such as the rear kick and charge) but these have a lot to do with the universal issues with testing right now (lag, controls, etc.).  If you look at my original post in this thread, you'll see I listed several perceived problems which I observed. 

 

If you want to make the Legio more survivable and therefore more able to keep up time on his buffs/debuffs (which seems to be one of your biggest concerns), you'll have to cut something else out.  He cannot be massive, mobile, CC, support and also very survivable.  The logical (that is on paper with no regard to the theme of the archetype) thing to do would be to decrease his mobility.  If you do that, you might as well burn that centaur model.  

 

I also suggested that you could increase the rage generation (or decrease its decay or the cost of skills) in order to better meet the costs of his abilities.  I do think your understanding of the design of the class is, again, colored by your perception of what you believe support should be.  Mine is definitely colored by the lore, the model, the equipment and theme surrounding the archetype.

 

Finally, the way in which game play is emerging for the Legionnaire has nothing to do with what I want.  Watch some videos.  You'll notice successful Legios running in and out of combat--because of, or perhaps in spite of, the way "it's currently designed."  I did not will this into existence, though I do now support it.  Why?  Because it makes sense.          


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only mobility he has right now is at the cost of every other skill he has, so I wouldn't look at that as a "pro". Besides like I said, I don't see any of those skills as being designed for the Legio to run around doing nothing. They're designed in a supportive capacity. I'm not trying to change them, I'm describing the way they are already designed, in terms of the entire skillset.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only mobility he has right now is at the cost of every other skill he has, so I wouldn't look at that as a "pro". Besides like I said, I don't see any of those skills as being designed for the Legio to run around doing nothing. They're designed in a supportive capacity. I'm not trying to change them, I'm describing the way they are already designed, in terms of the entire skillset.

 

Fine, cut off two of his legs, dress him in robes and call him "Druid."  Problem solved!  :P

 

You are, in fact, trying to change him and here is why:  you are looking purely at most of his skills and primarily at his capacity to support.  You are missing the things I have been emphasizing over and over again throughout this thread (and elsewhere). In your post I quoted here, you imply that you don't think his mobility is worth it.  You do realize we are talking about a centaur, right?  Four legs? Probably pretty fast?  Think of an archetype like a combination of class and race.  I am certain that the reason the Legio has the charge and the CC that he does is because he is a GIANT HORSE-MAN, and not because he is support. 

 

So, you have both--centaur and support combined in an archetype called a Legionnaire.  You cannot separate them.  They have to work together, or the archetype will be garbage.  It really is that simple. :mellow:                 

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fine, cut off two of his legs, dress him in robes and call him "Druid."  Problem solved!  :P

 

You are, in fact, trying to change him and here is why:  you are looking purely at most of his skills and primarily at his capacity to support.  You are missing the things I have been emphasizing over and over again throughout this thread (and elsewhere). In your post I quoted here, you imply that you don't think his mobility is worth it.  You do realize we are talking about a centaur, right?  Four legs? Probably pretty fast?  Think of an archetype like a combination of class and race.  I am certain that the reason the Legio has the charge and the CC that he does is because he is a GIANT HORSE-MAN, and not because he is support. 

 

So, you have both--centaur and support combined in an archetype called a Legionnaire.  You cannot separate them.  They have to work together, or the archetype will be garbage.  It really is that simple. :mellow:                 

 

No I have talked about his mobility repeatedly but I've also spoken about why I think you're suggestions are bad and why those particular skills are likely intended for CC (and I also mentioned that they are charges because he's a horse, but charges as a great form of CC, not as a run away skill). You haven't addressed my points at all about why it sucks and how he can't use the majority of his skillset when he's running away, or the fact that the skills are designed in such a way as to promote a certain playstyle. I also said this is not at all my preferred style - I don't enjoy melee nor do I enjoy the idea of "light healing" because it doesn't feel fun to me to use such small skills. Try to go back and actually read all of my points.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No I have talked about his mobility repeatedly but I've also spoken about why I think you're suggestions are bad and why those particular skills are likely intended for CC (and I also mentioned that they are charges because he's a horse, but charges as a great form of CC, not as a run away skill). You haven't addressed my points at all about why it sucks and how he can't use the majority of his skillset when he's running away, or the fact that the skills are designed in such a way as to promote a certain playstyle. I also said this is not at all my preferred style - I don't enjoy melee nor do I enjoy the idea of "light healing" because it doesn't feel fun to me to use such small skills. Try to go back and actually read all of my points.

 

If you really "don't enjoy melee" or "light healing" then the Legionnaire is obviously not the archetype for you. I know you realize that "light healing" is all your going to get in CF.  For example, the Druid might avoid melee, but she still will be a light healer.  Potentially, there may be a ranged version of the Legionnaire as a promotion class, so there is that too.

 

The run away behavior became the go to tactic for the Legio because of two reasons:  1. he does not have the survivability to stand about in melee; 2. he has a strength in mobility.  So, players adapted.  They run out, and they run back in. For some reason, you are stuck on this idea that if they aren't there buffing/debuffing/healing the majority of the time then they are broken.  Seemingly, you think that because they have those skills they should be spammed, as if the Legio is terrible because he cannot constantly cast those skills in rotation over and over.  All I can say is that I disagree with you.  I also disagree, for the most part, that his skills are designed to support the idea of a survivable buff/heal turret. 

 

Finally, I've really only suggested three things.  The first was to suggest the mass of the Legio should be increased.  I still hold to that (see almost every post I've made about the archetype).  The second is to bring the Legio's damage up to on par with the Knight--I've explained this a few times, and no one seems to be able to show me a flaw in my reasoning regarding this point.  Finally, I suggested that IF there is an issue with the Legio being under powered, especially because players utilize his mobility for survival/positioning/etc., then potentially the way rage is gained/spent/decays is adjusted. I am sorry you feel that these suggestions are "bad".   However, this third one would go quite to address many of your above concerns.  

 

AND FINALLY-FINALLY--you expanded on your post through editing after I was already responding to it above.  Therefore, I didn't see all your points!  Thank you for bringing them up.  However, I still don't agree with most of your basic assumptions with the notable exception that the Legio is supposed to be front line support.  I think you and I have different understandings of how the Legio archetype should accomplish this, however.      

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was also thinking... if this charge through/charge back in combat that is emerging for the Legionnaire is further developed/supported by ACE, we may have a bit of a solution for the friendly fire problem.  I've posted a couple of times that I have a concern for the Legio regarding friendly fire (problematic Legio characteristics such as size, AoE abilities, maneuverability, melee).  However, if the Legio is further refined to charge in/charge back, it probably would go a long way to alleviate some of the problems.    


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given a little more mass and ability to push people around, I could see the legionnaire playing similar to historical heavy cavalry, breaking up enemy lines to allow for other troops to move in. The light heal providing a bit of sustain helps with that, allowing them to have a role once friendly forces have followed up.

 

Unfortunately, right now the small groups don't really allow for this kind of play (no real battle lines), so I've been finding the legionnaire a little lackluster; the heal feels pretty important for group survivability, but that's about all I'm seeing. Maybe I'm missing something, but it feels like to confessor has better CC, is about as tanky, and does far more damage, which leaves our horseman overshadowed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been playing the Lego exclusively since I started in Hunger Dome; here are my thoughts.

 

The heal and the group movement buff are critical - I keep them up pretty much constantly. I also use the aoe knockback (#3) to break up a line pretty much whenever I can. It feels cavalry-esque in a sense. Sprint in faster than everyone else, blast everyone away, sprint back and start picking people off. Additionally if you can get the aoe snare off before you hit the knockback, it's even more fun.

 

The enhanced speed plus aoe knockback gives you a lot of utility to screw up people's plans. It's easy to run in, blast everyone backwards, heal the group, buff them, then continue running around distracting and keeping people off their game. 

 

If I'm sitting there beating on people and just spamming #4 combos all the way through over and over, my DPS is reasonably good. However, in real pvp I am pretty much never doing that. My purpose on the Lego is to heal, buff, and keep the enemies distracted and off their game.

 

That's the way I've been playing it and it's working well. Also, don't stand next to confessors.


Alestorm MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cons:

1. Damage looks poor--lowest of all three current archetypes being tested.

3. Not as massive as I thought it would be--both Knights and Confessors pushing the Legionnaire around (the Knight's chain pull seems to fling them a great distance).

6. Seems too fragile for such an imposing beast. 

 

As of right now, based on the videos I have watched, my biggest concern/complaint for the Legionnaire is its inadequate mass.  I was really hoping that the centaur would be a force by virtue of his large, heavy body.  They already have the draw backs of turning and being in the way a lot.

 

Wanted to address these particular issues.

 

1. Damage is actually fairly high if you execute the proper rotation: Sundering your enemies armor and following it up w/ your Drive for a bleed w/ RB building rage in between applying these debuffs until they come off CD again. Not to mention Velocity damage is a factor. When you use Scatter Horde(AoE knockback) next to a wall, enemies that get knocked into the wall can take Velocity damage, dealing additional damage, and if it is enough damage, stunning them for a small duration.

 

3. Velocity and mass are 2 things that are still being fine tuned and will probably continue to be fine tuned for the next few months. Until then I believe abilities like Chain Pull and Scatter Horde will continue to send enemies flying several 10s of meters.

 

6. When fully geared out, you do become quite an imposing beast. Your heals keep your team quite healthy, and can be used as a self heal if you're singled out. The game isn't being tuned for 1v1's though, something to always remember. In the current state of the game (and hopefully for the future of the game), positioning is a HUGE part of combat. If you're not constantly finding the right spot to stand during a fight you're going to be in a bad place. Player collision can get you trapped by an enemy team inside a small building. If an enemy gets chain pulled into you, you actually take velocity damage based on the mass of the creature hitting you and how fast it is moving.

 

If you play Centaur well here's what you provide to your team:

 

1. The best heal support in the game.

2. Powerful Melee peel, being able to knock away all enemies from your squishy teammates. Nothing better than casting Scatter Horde on 3 enemy Champions beating on your allied Confessor.

3. Positional prowess: with almost double the size and hit box of a normal character, you can block enemies into corners. You have to learn to steer a 4 legged beast before you become very good at this, but it is so powerful when you learn to execute good positioning.

4. Good DPS. Shredding enemy armor for your teammates to rip your enemies up, and applying bleeds.

Edited by EntityGaming

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you know how to play the Legionnaire it is the most powerful class in the game.

 

With no real effort you can do 50% or more of the enemies hp in 1 attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Might have already been said, but I have found the starting "stick" puts out no DPS.  Get a decent weapon though and you do mid-range DPS with an AoE knockback and a great heal.  I've spent 85% of my time on this class in pre-alpha and really enjoy it, less the stop to swing.


IC/Founding Member - Team X Gaming

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...