Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
evade2015

Amazing job so far... But combat = le sigh

Recommended Posts

Been watching the Pre Alpha footage on youtube and the game looks unbelievably good.

 

My main issue however was the decision to redesign combat from a telegraph free movement system ala Wildstar/Guildwars 2 to reticule animation lock system ala TERA.

 

Having watched the most recent Crowfall pre-alpha videos my opinion has only been reaffirmed.

 

Obviously its pre alpha and there is much to be improved, but the clunkyness of not being able to control your character's movement while using abilities is something that can't changed with this TERA system

 

Original Combat design (Ala Wildstar/Guildwars 2)

 

 

New combat design (TERA style)

 

Edited by evade2015

 7d4g0V5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea, remove the telegraphs from the initial combat and it is much better than what we have now imo....

 

They understand how important combat is though... so i'd hope they wouldnt move forward with things that don't work towards great combat...

 

That being said great combat itself is subjective... maybe tblairs vision for how he wants combat to be is just a lot different.

 

They may want slower more deliberate combat instead of the freestyle adaptive play.  I personally think the slower stuff takes less skill but it's not my game. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally don't like being able to float around while attacking. I think animation locking is a good thing. As I've said elsewhere, it forces you to commit to your attacks and pay for your mistakes.

 

However, this can be partially remedied by having abilities that move you as you're attacking, possibly in controllable directions (sort of like the centaur's steerable charge). I could envision one of the lighter archetypes like the assassin having an attack where you swing and then dash in a direction, say, left or right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Try to remember to talk about specifics when giving feedback to the developers.  What specifically makes you think the combat is better in the first video vs. the second.

 

Personally I'm going to reserve judgment until I can get my hands on it.  Even then I think they are several things that will need multiple iterations before they get them correct

1) The controller is currently server side.

2) applying force to the player "pill" for movement will require itterations

3)Combat in the dregs needs to be controlled enough that team members aren't dashing around killing each other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really need to experience the game more with their changes to movement that they want to have and no 1200 ping and whatever else they should be allowed to be given the chance to improve upon because it's pre-alpha. Before I can say I don't like it or not.

 

It definitely wasn't the boogieman i heard about where I would be locked into 4 swings unable to move or do anything while I am getting destroyed.until the 4 swings are done.

Edited by oberon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea, remove the telegraphs from the initial combat and it is much better than what we have now imo....

 

They understand how important combat is though... so i'd hope they wouldnt move forward with things that don't work towards great combat...

 

That being said great combat itself is subjective... maybe tblairs vision for how he wants combat to be is just a lot different.

 

They may want slower more deliberate combat instead of the freestyle adaptive play.  I personally think the slower stuff takes less skill but it's not my game. 

 

Telegraphs are simply indicators that provide the player an opportunity to use skill and reaction to get out of the way. Without indicators you essentially have a tab target game since its impossible to dodge abilities that you don't see coming.

 

Indicators come in many forms. 1 such form are particular effects and graphics on the ground to tell the player "This area is about to be hit by so and so spell, you have 3 seconds to get out of the way" Many games use this type of telegraph. Here's 1 such example

 

 
Another type of indicator (or telegraph) is animation lock. Instead of seeing the indicator on the ground, you see the character doing some sort of animation. It can't be instant though as that would make dodging it impossible so you get this clunky 1-3 second "animation lock".
 
I'm obviously still a huge fan having committed 500 hard earned USD to back this game and company.  Just needed to provide my feedback after watching the youtube videos
Edited by evade2015

 7d4g0V5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Telegraphs are simply indicators that provide the player an opportunity to use skill and reaction to get out of the way. Without indicators you essentially have a tab target game since its impossible to dodge abilities that you don't see coming.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but we had this discussion 6 months ago.

Telegraphs are for carebears that cant predict attacks and learn moves to know its range/cast-time/cooldown

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes it's pre-alpha and it will be very educational to see where they go with the game as it moves forward...  We'll see more and more of their vision as time goes on, and we will also see how they adapt to things that may not have worked exactly as they imagined. 

 

But just because it's pre-alpha doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss things. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry, but we had this discussion 6 months ago.

Telegraphs are for carebears that cant predict attacks and learn moves to know its range/cast-time/cooldown

 

Ah, right.  If you can't correctly guess which ability is coming at you and when, without any visual indication, you are a carebear.  Well said.   :huh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Been watching the Pre Alpha footage on youtube and the game looks unbelievably good.

 

My main issue however was the decision to redesign combat from a telegraph free movement system ala Wildstar/Guildwars 2 to reticule animation lock system ala TERA.

 

Having watched the most recent Crowfall pre-alpha videos my opinion has only been reaffirmed.

 

Obviously its pre alpha and there is much to be improved, but the clunkyness of not being able to control your character's movement while using abilities is something that can't changed with this TERA system

 

Original Combat design (Ala Wildstar/Guildwars 2)

 

 

New combat design (TERA style)

 

 

 

I, personally, quite enjoy TERA's combat system, and I think that it is one of the best combat systems every implemented in an MMO. I encourage you to take a look at https://youtu.be/8RGzzS1jGJc?t=7m7s. It does an excellent job of explaining why animation lock is not the same as being rooted. I also encourage you to watch from the beggining of the video as well, as it further explains what differentiates TERA's combat system from WoW. One of the key points being the fact that animations are modeled using tight hit-boxes which follow the swing of a weapon in 3D space, allowing for a player to much more intuitively dodge attacks.

 

Yea, remove the telegraphs from the initial combat and it is much better than what we have now imo....

 

They understand how important combat is though... so i'd hope they wouldnt move forward with things that don't work towards great combat...

 

That being said great combat itself is subjective... maybe tblairs vision for how he wants combat to be is just a lot different.

 

They may want slower more deliberate combat instead of the freestyle adaptive play.  I personally think the slower stuff takes less skill but it's not my game. 

 

I would disagree. Animation lock does not equal slower, even though it does mean more deliberate. I would argue that this deliberateness takes more skill to master, not less, as it adds very real risk to attacking, which takes skill to manage well.

 

I would agree that Crowfall's current combat system appears to be a bit slow, and perhaps even a bit inconsequential. I would argue that this is due to high-health pools, low damage on nearly all attacks, and a lack of a stagger system making being hit not all that detrimental.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its pre alpha.  Give them a break and be thankful they are letting us play.  Its going to be broken and "wonky"  They are fully aware of this. 

 

Think they want our feedback glockonfire. In fact, constructive criticism is by far more valuable to them then "Everything is amesome, dont change a thing"


 7d4g0V5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are aware animation lock is a telegraph right?

 

You know what I mean when I say telegraph, you don't have to act stupid.

I was talking about the traditional WS, Tera, GW2, FFXIV sissy telegraphs with flashy colors on the ground that made those games so easy you could sleep through the hardest dungeons.

Edited by zinnie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I would disagree. Animation lock does not equal slower, even though it does mean more deliberate. I would argue that this deliberateness takes more skill to master, not less, as it adds very real risk to attacking, which takes skill to manage well.

 

I would agree that Crowfall's current combat system appears to be a bit slow, and perhaps even a bit inconsequential. I would argue that this is due to high-health pools, low damage on nearly all attacks, and a lack of a stagger system making being hit not all that detrimental.

Animation lock doesn't equal slower... but this kind of animation lock equals slower.  It doesn't really take more skill to master any game in which you are allowed to think and react slower. 

 

There's always a risk to attacking in any high level play, with or without animation locks good players will abuse people who position incorrectly or use the wrong abilities at the wrong times.  Animation locks just add a more obvious mechanism to punish those moments. 

 

The current system is slow based on the stop and go jerky nature of it.... 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are aware animation lock is a telegraph right?

 

While clearly they have more work to do on the visual end, beyond R/L MB which are the main abilities, it appears that most have animation locks of some sort, as you said "telegraphs" or they are instant cast so no telegraph is going to help much.

 

Do you need telegraphs on what are basically auto attacks?

 

As far as being able to move while using attacks, do you mean animation lock or something else? Everyone playing seems to be able to move around and attack just fine within the limitations of each ability/character.

Edited by allein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know what I mean when I say telegraph, you don't have to act stupid.

I was talking about the traditional WS, Tera, GW2, FFXIV sissy telegraphs with flashy colors on the ground that made those games so easy you could sleep through the hardest dungeons.

 

No I don't actually. I don't see a difference in using animation lock to tell an opponent "do not stand here, time to move" over particular effects/ground graphics that tells the opponent the same thing. One limits character control however, while the other does not.

 

Also, Wildstar failed because it was too hard for the average MMO player.

Edited by evade2015

 7d4g0V5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...