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evade2015

Amazing job so far... But combat = le sigh

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And punishing strong spells that are delivered at incorrect times is not exclusive to animation lock. 

 

I think the telling word you use here is 'spells'. Traditional MMO combat has conditioned you to think that the only interruptible attacks are spells, rather than all attacks, melee or otherwise. This is what I was getting at with my mention of a flinching system: if you are hit by an any attack while in the middle of an attack animation, your attack is interrupted and doesn't do damage.

 

Flinching would ideally apply when getting hit by any attack, but could be toned down if it is seen that this doesn't quite work in group situations. The first thing that I see happening, would be to make flinching only apply when being hit by a melee attack, and then only when being hit by certain melee attacks. I think it is also worth mentioning that some moves in fighting games have armor, meaning that they can absorb one or more hits without being interrupted. This could be considered for the slower and meatier archetypes.

 

A benefit that you get from such a system is that you don't have two knights indifferently stabbing each other in the face until one of them keels over, seemingly at random.

Edited by Raizex

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Finally! Someone else who see's the keyboard as being a vastly inferior input device for controlling movement!

 

 

Tell that to the people that can do quake jump maps backwards or people playing csgo surf maps....

 

 

I think the telling word you use here is 'spells'. Traditional MMO combat has conditioned you to think that the only interruptible attacks are spells, rather than all attacks, melee or otherwise. This is what I was getting at with my mention of a flinching system: if you are hit by an any attack while in the middle of an attack animation, your attack is interrupted and doesn't do damage.

 

Flinching would ideally apply when getting hit by any attack, but could be toned down if it is seen that this doesn't quite work in group situations. The first thing that I see happening, would be to make flinching only apply when being hit by a melee attack, and then only when being hit by certain melee attacks. I think it is also worth mentioning that some moves in fighting games have armor, meaning that they can absorb one or more hits without being interrupted. This could be considered for the slower and meatier archetypes.

And that doesn't work fundamentally different than a specific interrupt, spell knockback etc....

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Finally! Someone else who see's the keyboard as being a vastly inferior input device for controlling movement!

 

 

I just want to know if gamepad support has been implemented yet.   :lol:


 

Sorry you turned into a two-bit carebear whose feelings get hurt over forum banter.

 

 

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watched some stream, generally quite pleased with the quality of the assets, generally displeased with my perceived feel of combat

 

this might sound like a funny concern, but honestly right now the combat looks really... "mmo-y" to me. Really not what I'm going to be looking for. A lot of face-rubbing going on.

 

still, it's pre-alpha, it's not like I'm voicing serious criticism yet

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watched some stream, generally quite pleased with the quality of the assets, generally displeased with my perceived feel of combat

 

this might sound like a funny concern, but honestly right now the combat looks really... "mmo-y" to me. Really not what I'm going to be looking for. A lot of face-rubbing going on.

 

still, it's pre-alpha, it's not like I'm voicing serious criticism yet

 

MMO'y combat in.....wait.... an MMO?  Who would have thought!

 

I get your point tho, combat looks a little wonky, but that could be due to the huge latency as well.

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Maybe I dont understand something about "animation lock" in MMO's. Can it be compared to fighting games? (I never acually read someone who pulled that argument before.) In fighting games you are locked into your animation with windup into hitbox into lag yet it feels very fluent and fast. You cannot put anything in while you are performing a move. Shouldnt it be the same in Crowfall then? Fighting games know there fighting because there is not much else to do other then fighting. With a bouncing fish from Sheik you can recover with a rocket from Luigi too. But I dont think they were just designed for that yet people use it for movement. Players just have to know their moves and the enemy moves to play the game properly. Is that punish to slow so that my enemy can block? Can I use a slower attack here? 

 

I would love to see gameplay like this in Crowfall! Risk vs. Reward.


 

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MMO'y combat in.....wait.... an MMO?  Who would have thought!

 

well, that's the natural retort, but  I (and probably some others) am mostly interested in Crowfall in the hopes that it does not play like other MMOs

 

Not saying I'm entitled to that or anything, I kickstarted with this concern exactly already well in mind

Edited by bearmans

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I'm sorry, but we had this discussion 6 months ago.

Telegraphs are for carebears that cant predict attacks and learn moves to know its range/cast-time/cooldown

 

When you have 10+ people throwing poorly made socks at you predicting attacks is not really a thing. Odds are, you're gonna get hit. However telegraphs won't help with this either (which was the case in WS, where no one would bother to actually use the dodge skill on telegraphs, that was reserved mainly for CC breaks).

 

However I'm for some sort of indicator on the caster side to inform how far the projectile will travel, with clear hit indicators. Transparency is good for pvp (hence the need for a death cam).

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However I'm for some sort of indicator on the caster side to inform how far the projectile will travel, with clear hit indicators. Transparency is good for pvp (hence the need for a death cam).

 

I'm more for at least tripling the range on those projectiles and then let people naturally learn how close they have to be to their target.

Longer range is also a little more forgiving, so we don't need the extra help of range indicators.

 

I'm all for some form of hit indicator though. be it via the reticule or sound effect or whatever comes to mind.

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I have to say I'm a little taken aback by a large part of this thread.  All combat systems in MMO's have brought something else to the table, they've added or removed, and have frequently made or broken games.

 

Saying that we NEED a Telegraph system and that the combat must be like WildStar's in incorrect.

 

So is saying that we NEED to NOT have a Telegraph system, and that animation lock like TERA is the only way to go.

 

What we need, is a smooth combat experience, where attacking has a risk if done correctly, and where you can, with some time, learn to dodge enemy attacks, or at least know what is coming.  I don't think Telegraphs are the answer, but the smooth combat from WildStar definitely is.  I don't think always animation lock is the answer either.

 

From what I've seen in the pre-alpha videos, there is a lot of work to be done still.  Which makes sense, it's pre-alpha.  The biggest things for me would be turning animations.  Watching centaurs instantly go from facing left to facing right doesn't sit well IMO.  Horses can't do a 180.  And players that can 180 in mid air...I'm not sure there's a fix for this, but it turns a lot of PvP into a button mashing contest while flailing back and forth at your enemies.


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I would also like to point out that TERA also uses quite a few buttons, so an emphasis on character positioning doesn't necessarily mean limiting the number of abilities one has access to. (I will readily admit that I use a Razor Naga, so I might have a bit less trouble than most moving while using a large amount of abilities.)

 

TERA does have a lot of buttons and I use a Naga Hex, so that only gives me 6 extra buttons. However I'd like to point out that I played a class with 35 keybinds I regularly used in combat in TERA. If my small girl hands could deal with that for 3 years, then none of you have any excuse to deal with the measly 13 keybinds in this game.

 

Flinching would ideally apply when getting hit by any attack, but could be toned down if it is seen that this doesn't quite work in group situations. The first thing that I see happening, would be to make flinching only apply when being hit by a melee attack, and then only when being hit by certain melee attacks. I think it is also worth mentioning that some moves in fighting games have armor, meaning that they can absorb one or more hits without being interrupted. This could be considered for the slower and meatier archetypes.

 

A benefit that you get from such a system is that you don't have two knights indifferently stabbing each other in the face until one of them keels over, seemingly at random.

 

Flinching is an interesting idea but only as long as it's not spammable and/or able to be used too frequently. It needs to be a thoughtful, strategic use of a certain skill that can flinch. I just don't want to relive the nightmare that was the D-Stance Warrior in TERA.

 

I'm more for at least tripling the range on those projectiles and then let people naturally learn how close they have to be to their target.

Longer range is also a little more forgiving, so we don't need the extra help of range indicators.

 

I'm all for some form of hit indicator though. be it via the reticule or sound effect or whatever comes to mind.

 

What kind of range are you thinking about? I honestly got the impression that they had absurdly long range already in the videos we've seen so far. Keep in mind that it's action combat game so they can avoid things with skill and as combat progresses, the ability to do that will improve. They also are very mobile so if you let them attack from farther away it'll be pretty awful trying to catch them. All we need is the ability to shoot up or down off of keeps and they already have the range for that (albeit some wonky aiming issues as seen here).

 

I think in terms of not knowing how far they'll go or where they'll hit, that can be fixed in two ways. One is via trial and error, players will just learn the average distance it can go if it doesn't hit anything. Aside from that, they will just hit the first target they come into contact with, so once the hit animations are more clear (which appears to be a problem for every ability), that will be easier to notice.

Edited by Leiloni

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TERA does have a lot of buttons and I use a Naga Hex, so that only gives me 6 extra buttons. However I'd like to point out that I played a class with 35 keybinds I regularly used in combat in TERA. If my small girl hands could deal with that for 3 years, then none of you have any excuse to deal with the measly 13 keybinds in this game.

 

 

 

Beat that you measly carebears. If a girl can do it, stop complaining.

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What kind of range are you thinking about? I honestly got the impression that they had absurdly long range already in the videos we've seen so far. Keep in mind that it's action combat game so they can avoid things with skill and as combat progresses, the ability to do that will improve. They also are very mobile so if you let them attack from farther away it'll be pretty awful trying to catch them. All we need is the ability to shoot up or down off of keeps and they already have the range for that (albeit some wonky aiming issues as seen here).

 

 

100m+ for some abilities.

Not saying all have to have that kinda of range, but there certainly should be at least a few.

Those 20m range AAs seem kinda stupid to me tbh.

 

Adjust projectile speed and range accordingly.

 

And yes people can dodge, but I've also hit people 150m away in midair in Darkfall. Everything's possible :)

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I'm interested to see what the effects of animation lock will be in large battles, where you'll typically be punished for every choice you'll make with little to no recourse. I mean animation lock worked in tera to a certain extent, but the animation play time were also much shorter. I mean the warrior in tera could practically attack on the move with little to no stoppage. In crowfall, just auto attacking feels like a monumental decision that you're likely to be punished for.

 

Right now animation lock is closer to Skyforge (*shudder*) and Neverwinter (*throws up in mouth*) than Tera.

 

There is also no traditional dodge type ability. In Tera, classes like stalker get a medium range back flip dodge that gets them in trouble. In crowfall, The legionnaires Iframe ability is basically him just standing there, not really all that inspiring or helpful when you're in the thick of battle getting pounded by dozens of different abilities.

 

I'd prefer some sort of "side-step" dodge like in skyforge (but dodge in that game was totally useless cause almost every ability locked on to you). Funny that the skyforge dodge would be better used in crowfall, than in it's native game.

Edited by helix

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And yes people can dodge, but I've also hit people 150m away in midair in Darkfall. Everything's possible :)

 

I would actually argue that it's harder to dodge from that far away because after a certain point, you just don't see them coming(also weren't projectiles in Darkfall a bit faster?). In a game like Darkfall if you can aim (which really appears to be the harder part), then projectiles coming from a mile away aren't going to be terribly easy to avoid IMO. Shorter range would make it easier on both parties.

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I would actually argue that it's harder to dodge from that far away because after a certain point, you just don't see them coming(also weren't projectiles in Darkfall a bit faster?). In a game like Darkfall if you can aim (which really appears to be the harder part), then projectiles coming from a mile away aren't going to be terribly easy to avoid IMO. Shorter range would make it easier on both parties.

 

well, ya projectiles were faster.

But they also had sounds and whatnot that indicated something was coming for you.

(The pre-patch earth magic spells had some nasty sounds... always reminded me of tie-fighters passing by :D)

 

But look here...https://youtu.be/YlrsS4Id_YE?t=1m35s

That's pretty much max range for spells in DF. They're using earth magic there as well. Fire magic had maybe 2/3 of that range.

 

It was possible to see those projectiles coming your way and move out of the way or at least get your shield up.

 

 

The shorther the range, the more irratic the movement of players and thus also harder to aim.

But I guess I understand what you're saying :)

Depends on a lot of different circumstances. Player movement speed, inertia, projectile speed and so on.

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My main concern with animation lock is the degree to which it ends up being used.

 

When you look at spec's and spec balance across a whole lot of games, in a competitive setting, a lot of players will lean towards specs that have less abilities that are animation locked. Unless there is a truly massive damage difference, and even then if the ability animation is too slow, and too showy it becomes almost useless, and is replaced by something more productive in rotations.

 

The dev's are going to need to be careful when and where they introduce lock vs. unlocked animations. The other thing to consider is how well locked abilities work in a potentially laggy environment. It is not uncommon for dev's to go back and remove locks after a game launches because even minor server lag can render longer animations unusable. 

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