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evade2015

Amazing job so far... But combat = le sigh

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You are also taking up four of the five fingers of your left hand just for movement.

 

Notice how I didn't say it was faster, but gave you more precision. No matter which way you cut it, 8 direction binary is less precise than unlimited way analog. There is a reason fighter pilots don't use WASD an an input device. If you care about speed, just use a stationary, pressure-sensitive stick. They were developed for precisely that reason.

 

I might also be wrong that the thumb stick is the way to go. Perhaps HOMAS setups are more ergonomic and the future of gaming, as they free up all of the fingers of the left hand for pressing buttons. They also have the benefit of already existing. Then there is the Razor Hydra to consider...This requires further testing.

 

Now all Crowfall needs to do is add true analog support and we can see if my hypothesis proves to be correct.

We can look at games that require extreme and precise movement and already see that keyboard + mouse is the ultimate combo...  No need for hypothesizing...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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CF right now plays more like Skyforge. I dare anyone to try that pile and tell me they don't see similarities. It's still very early, I mean it's pre-alpha. If in 3-6-9 months time combat hasn't improved, call da paolice.

I hope that's the case. Skyforge has surprisingly fun combat.

 

I think a mix of locking and free movement abilities instead of heavily favoring one style is the way to go. It's a good balancing mechanic. Abilities that require standing still can be a bit more powerful as a trade off. Then you've got different abilities for different situations.


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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We can look at games that require extreme and precise movement and already see that keyboard + mouse is the ultimate combo...  No need for hypothesizing...

 

The day I finally agreed with Viking... Someone alert the papers.


"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

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No I don't actually. I don't see a difference in using animation lock to tell an opponent "do not stand here, time to move" over particular effects/ground graphics that tells the opponent the same thing. One limits character control however, while the other does not.

 

Also, Wildstar failed because it was too hard for the average MMO player.

 

Wildstar isn't hard, just incredibly grindy.  Not to mention, the telegraphs make all of the abilities feel homogenized.

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You are also taking up four of the five fingers of your left hand just for movement.

 

Notice how I didn't say it was faster, but gave you more precision. No matter which way you cut it, 8 direction binary is less precise than unlimited way analog. There is a reason fighter pilots don't use WASD an an input device. If you care about speed, just use a stationary, pressure-sensitive stick. They were developed for precisely that reason.

 

I might also be wrong that the thumb stick is the way to go. Perhaps HOMAS setups are more ergonomic and the future of gaming, as they free up all of the fingers of the left hand for pressing buttons. They also have the benefit of already existing. Then there is the Razor Hydra to consider...This requires further testing.

 

Now all Crowfall needs to do is add true analog support and we can see if my hypothesis proves to be correct.

 

A keyboard and mouse isn't 8 direction binary.  An analog requires more distance to travel when changing a direction because of the actual definition of "analog".  You are comparing an instant vs non-instant for change of direction.  Additionaly you are failing to account for the functionality of a mouse driven camera.  There is a reason these things don't exist together in the same environment.  One requires direct input and the other requires a lot of speculative adjustment.

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The day I finally agreed with Viking... Someone alert the papers.

 

A stopped clock is right twice a day...


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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I hope that's the case. Skyforge has surprisingly fun combat.

 

I think a mix of locking and free movement abilities instead of heavily favoring one style is the way to go. It's a good balancing mechanic. Abilities that require standing still can be a bit more powerful as a trade off. Then you've got different abilities for different situations.

Skyforge's combat is riddled with animation lock, but it's more fluid in comparison to CF (which is to be expected considering the state of the two games). However I wouldn't call Skyforge combat real "action" combat. It's no different than WoW's or Rift, with tab targeting lock ons, and auto-guided abilities. Dashes in that game have no iframes, are useless for dodging most abilities, and are largely used to put distance or close distance between you and a target. Basically it's a faux action combat, something I hope we're not going to have with Crowfall.

 

I'm also interested to see what FF will be like in this game, I have a feeling they'll have to scrap that idea (or greatly reduce the amount of damage you take from splash) after playing and seeing the confessor in action. FF will be a hot topic in the coming months, and a focus point for a boat load of potential frustration if not implemented correctly.

 

https://youtu.be/7tM-wgB1qWU?t=41m47s

 

One of the guys on the panel actually brings up a good point, about how FF could totally ruin aoe focused classes.

Edited by helix

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If the purpose of animation locking were to penalize people and intentionally slow down combat, I don't think I would like it. But if it is a choice and a trade off (longer animations do more damage, etc.) and you can cancel out of an animation if something else happens, then that would be ideal. I don't think all attacks should be locked and I don't like the idea of not being able to get out of it, if you need to.

 

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is away to cancel out of animation. You could do this in TERA with certain abilities (generally the dodge was an animation canceller). There is no dodge in CF however. So yea, there is no "I just executed an ability, and now there is 3 people to the back of me about to unleash a barrage of fire balls at me, welp guess I'll just use my dodge to cancel my animation and evade the attacks". 

 

Block on the knight feels especially useless right now with not being able to move. You block a confessor and he's just going to walk to the side and hit you from that side, or someone is going to plow you from the back. You basically immobilize yourself to block.

 

Combo abilities I also feel need to be thought out again, in terms of where they should be positioned on your control scheme and how often you should be able to use them. In most modern games, combos are linked to mouse clicks. DCUO had an incredibly robust combo system, perhaps one of the best I've seen in a long time. Black Desert combo system was actually REALLY good as well, and the character movement felt extremely organic. There was animation lock, but the abilities allowed you to move around and evade attacks from within the lock. Everyone here should give BDO a try and see how animation lock can work, but not require your character to grind to a complete stop.

 

I feel like your standard mouse attacks should have the combo trees / branches (and maybe they eventually will, but right now it feels like your standard is very linear in functionality). How awesome would it be to have a REAL combo system linked to your mouse, rather then the faux combo system we have now.

 

I'm sure (at least hope) that the combo system will evolve over time.

Edited by helix

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I feel combat would be a lot more fluid with a dodge system that cancels attacks in progress.

This makes it possible for you to move away from incoming missiles and attacks.

 

Right now it seems like a lot of the combat is very static, and characters are standing in place.

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Block on the knight feels especially useless right now with not being able to move. You block a confessor and he's just going to walk to the side and hit you from that side, or someone is going to plow you from the back. You basically immobilize yourself to block.

 

 

I liked the rest of your post but just had one comment regarding this quote. The way I've seen it in other games and how I suspect they wanted it to work here (especially since block has no CD), is not for you to stand still blocking endlessly. It's like dodge in that it should be a skill you time properly and when used that way, it feels good and the root doesn't feel bad.

 

You throw up your shield to block something and then take your shield back down to continue attacking. The root is a necessary balance so people can't turtle forever and just block and move, completely unable to be hit without any skill required. If someone is hard to hit it should be because they're great at properly timing blocks and dodges, not sitting there with their finger constantly on the button.

 

In your scenario, I would expect you to block to mitigate the initial frontal attack from the Confessor and then as they move, you take your finger off block. Maybe you try to leash or use a sword skill if you're close enough. Then once you see them wind up into another skill animation you're already turned around and you hit your block key again so that by the time that fireball actually hits your character pill, your block is up and ready to mitigate.

Edited by Leiloni

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Most of the blocking I have seen people do has been after they are low on health when they would have died anyways. People just stand there damaging the person who is blocking saying "Ok you blocked now what, your hp is still going down." It needs to be used much earlier in the fight at whatever correct time to have made a difference.

Edited by oberon

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I liked the rest of your post but just had one comment regarding this quote. The way I've seen it in other games and how I suspect they wanted it to work here (especially since block has no CD), is not for you to stand still blocking endlessly. It's like dodge in that it should be a skill you time properly and when used that way, it feels good and the root doesn't feel bad.

 

You throw up your shield to block something and then take your shield back down to continue attacking. The root is a necessary balance so people can't turtle forever and just block and move, completely unable to be hit without any skill required. If someone is hard to hit it should be because they're great at properly timing blocks and dodges, not sitting there with their finger constantly on the button.

 

 

It's likely that block is meant to be a quick reaction.  I also thought ACE was considering a Hold the Line style ability where the knight raises his shield and protects people behind him.  In this case the root would be necessary as well as the constant stamina drain so the knight couldn't protect for unlimited time.


 

Sorry you turned into a two-bit carebear whose feelings get hurt over forum banter.

 

 

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I liked the rest of your post but just had one comment regarding this quote. The way I've seen it in other games and how I suspect they wanted it to work here (especially since block has no CD), is not for you to stand still blocking endlessly. It's like dodge in that it should be a skill you time properly and when used that way, it feels good and the root doesn't feel bad.

 

You throw up your shield to block something and then take your shield back down to continue attacking. The root is a necessary balance so people can't turtle forever and just block and move, completely unable to be hit without any skill required. If someone is hard to hit it should be because they're great at properly timing blocks and dodges, not sitting there with their finger constantly on the button.

 

In your scenario, I would expect you to block to mitigate the initial frontal attack from the Confessor and then as they move, you take your finger off block. Maybe you try to leash or use a sword skill if you're close enough. Then once you see them wind up into another skill animation you're already turned around and you hit your block key again so that by the time that fireball actually hits your character pill, your block is up and ready to mitigate.

 

When you're fighting a singular target, or in small scrimmages I can see the current implementation of block being fine (I still think you should move in block, but at half of normal walk speed). However I have a hard time seeing it work in medium to large scrimmages, where attacks are coming in from multiple vectors (unless blocking gives you a buff which reduces damage regardless of the direction). Age of Conan actually had a pretty good way of dealing with this. You could "reinforce" your block, you could either set it up so  have a little mitigation from all directions (besides behind) while blocking, or you can super reinforce a direction.

 

Something like that might work in Crowfall.

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When you're fighting a singular target, or in small scrimmages I can see the current implementation of block being fine (I still think you should move in block, but at half of normal walk speed). However I have a hard time seeing it work in medium to large scrimmages, where attacks are coming in from multiple vectors (unless blocking gives you a buff which reduces damage regardless of the direction). Age of Conan actually had a pretty good way of dealing with this. You could "reinforce" your block, you could either set it up so  have a little mitigation from all directions (besides behind) while blocking, or you can super reinforce a direction.

 

Something like that might work in Crowfall.

 

Realistically damage won't be coming from all directions like you describe unless you're standing in the middle of a crowd of enemies in which case you should probably move. If that much damage was coming from all sides all the time, then the Confessor and Legionnaire would die pretty quickly.

 

Edit: Although on the topic of moving during block I found a video that illustrates why I think it works so well in the hands of a skilled player and how you can continue to attack and move quickly even when weaving in blocks. You barely even notice that he's actually rooted while blocking because he's only holding down for a short bit of time before moving again.

 

I think the Knight as a class can function in a similar way to be a frontline harasser with the ability to quickly block when needed to help him prevent damage and stay alive to continue being a pain in the ass.

 

Check out 24:42 and 25:45 just for the block examples: http://www.twitch.tv/goldkumas/c/5137536

Edited by Leiloni

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We can look at games that require extreme and precise movement and already see that keyboard + mouse is the ultimate combo...  No need for hypothesizing...

 

How do you know if you've never tried it? At this point it feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy: Everyone thinks that mouse + keyboard is the ultimate combination for playing video games, therefore no one tries anything different, therefore everyone continues to believe that mouse + keyboard is the ultimate combination for input in video games.

 

Do you see mouse + keyboard being an ideal input for playing super smash brothers, a game that requires extreme and precise movement? How about for driving a formula 1 car, or flying a fighter jet, or operating a mech suit, which are also other tasks that require extreme and precise movement?

 

The keyboard is just a set of buttons, which nearly every other input device has. The mouse is the one doing the heavy lifting in nearly every game that requires precise and extreme movement, with the keyboard merely providing some extra buttons. Most of which you can't press very easily anyway since most of your left hand is busy pressing WASD, shift (in games which support sprinting), and the space bar.

 

I think it's kind of telling that I can struggle to find easy to press keys in fps games, where you only have 1-2 abilites, movement, weapon switching, ADS, and fire, even though I use a mouse with 12 buttons on the side, 3 buttons on top, and a keyboard with seventy bajillion keys. This is mostly due to the fact nearly all of the fingers on my left hand are tied up simply moving my character around. This issue is only compounded in MMO games, where in addition to all of that I also have 10-30 spells and abilities to manage as well.

 

Don't get me wrong, it is workable, but it's far from ideal, and the keyboard is very clearly the weak link in the combination.

Edited by Raizex

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Realistically damage won't be coming from all directions like you describe unless you're standing in the middle of a crowd of enemies in which case you should probably move. If that much damage was coming from all sides all the time, then the Confessor and Legionnaire would die pretty quickly.

 

Edit: Although on the topic of moving during block I found a video that illustrates why I think it works so well in the hands of a skilled player and how you can continue to attack and move quickly even when weaving in blocks. You barely even notice that he's actually rooted while blocking because he's only holding down for a short bit of time before moving again.

 

I think the Knight as a class can function in a similar way to be a frontline harasser with the ability to quickly block when needed to help him prevent damage and stay alive to continue being a pain in the bottom.

 

Check out 24:42 and 25:45 just for the block examples: http://www.twitch.tv/goldkumas/c/5137536

 

I read these forums at work and sometimes see posts I feel I should respond to, but that is no longer necessary as Leiloni says everything that needs to be said. Good pick with the Gold video too, a comparison between his play and some low level lancer would be efficient in showing the animation lock non-believers how great a mechanic it can be so long as it is at a certain speed.

 

Every single ability should have animation lock.

 

Thanks.


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