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Helix

Resurrection / Comeback Mechanics

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I'm curious to see what's everyones opinion on mid-fight resurrection and other sorts of comeback mechanics. I'm not a fan of "one and done". Maybe it's just from playing too many mobas (or past mmorpgs where a clutch resurrect can help you go from imminent defeat to equal footing).

 

Resurrection is a tricky subject, because it definitely can favor large groups over small ones, but at the same time, it can also make fights very interesting. The game is going to REVOLVE around large scrimmages, so why not?

 

Personally, I'd like to see the following:

 

  • Resurrects on very long cool downs, support only (will only encourage having them). Can only resurrect the same person once during combat.
  • Relatively short range. Want to resurrect that tank in the front? You gotta put yourself in danger.
  • Long cast time, easy to interrupt, and once interrupted, skill goes on a short-medium cool down. When to resurrect will matter, because you'll basically be taking yourself out of the fight for a few seconds to do it.
  • Resurrected person has "res sickness", decreased stats for good while.

Some other penalties could exist for the caster. Like sacrificing a large percentage of your health upon completing the casting (kinda like channeling your "life force" in to your dead ally).

Edited by helix

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Interesting idea but too complicated. You don't need so many restrictions on a skill. As for the size, I've seen other games do it where it's a 5m AoE circle right at the caster's feet, so you have to walk right up to your target, make sure their body is in the circle, and then cast. It's not like a tab target game where you can target them from afar, so you'll have to aim at them in some way and getting close works well. Of course these skills also tend to have long cast times as well (5-10 seconds).

Edited by Leiloni

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We had plenty of threads discussing down-states similar to Darkfall (NOT GW2 so STFU about that failure)

 

 

Not only would that allow for another tactical layer for combat, it would also let ACE monetize the feature with different finishing moves.

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My issue is that if you have a come back mechanic do you want to give it to everyone?

 

Is it going to be a passive skill like clicking on a corpse?

 

Is it going to be an active ability? Is it then going to be a discipline? or will it be linked to a specific Archetype?

 

If you make it an active ability and then tie to to discipline or Archetype, balance wise you have made that a must bring.

 

Depending on the cool down and effectiveness, it might be 2-3 people in your guild have to bring it, or everyone has to bring it. That's pretty big from a balance perspective. Your forcing people into bringing a particular build, or Archetype to fill that role, and it ends up somewhat diminishing the value of other Archetypes, or builds that fill similar roles. It is such a power ability that it is really hard not to make it a must bring, and on a tactical level it completely changes combat strategy, focus fire targets, and group composition.

 

An example would be warrior banner elites in GW2, that became a must bring skill to any guild roaming / gvg. Even with a good length CD on the ability, it shifted into a rotation strategy. This helped make warriors a bit more useful in place of another class, that could fill the same tank / dps role, but lacked the combat res.

 

It is not 100% the best example, and there are others but having a come back mechanic can be tricky on the balance if you tie to a particular archetype / build.

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My issue is that if you have a come back mechanic do you want to give it to everyone?

 

Is it going to be a passive skill like clicking on a corpse?

 

Is it going to be an active ability? Is it then going to be a discipline? or will it be linked to a specific Archetype?

 

If you make it an active ability and then tie to to discipline or Archetype, balance wise you have made that a must bring.

 

 

I think it's fair to say that supports will be a must bring for any seriously competitive guild that wants to win fights and succeed in the greater scheme of the game. Assigning resurrect to those classes won't be as much as an issue in that case, since any medium group will likely have a few supports in their rank. Now whether it's an ability that you'll have to slot (in that case, it will limit your options) or some other external ability akin to the F key abilities in guild wars 2 is a good question.

 

I'm also against putting resurrect on disciplines since that will eliminate options for certain archetypes. It's far easier to just have it tied to the base support archetype (and maybe specialist), and it will obviously have to be an activatable ability.

 

 

 

Depending on the cool down and effectiveness, it might be 2-3 people in your guild have to bring it, or everyone has to bring it. That's pretty big from a balance perspective. Your forcing people into bringing a particular build, or Archetype to fill that role, and it ends up somewhat diminishing the value of other Archetypes, or builds that fill similar roles. It is such a power ability that it is really hard not to make it a must bring, and on a tactical level it completely changes combat strategy, focus fire targets, and group composition.

 

When you're in a real guild (and by real guild, I mean a group of people that want to win at all costs), you're gonna have people make sacrifices. If bubba has to play a druid and bring resurrect, he's going to. I don't really see the problem in having supports be a necessary component of any group. Certain archetypes with certain build are going to be more valuable, and that's just it.

Edited by helix

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I am not saying that people having to go into certain archetypes or builds is a bad thing, it's how it works in a competitive environment.

 

But depending on the dev's vision on how they would like to see group balance work out, res type abilities are going to be an important factor if they are added.

 

Personally my biggest bugbear when it comes to come back mechanics tends to be that, not all abilities are created equally. I really dislike it when due to a handful of show stopper abilities, or talents / traits the overall group comp gets dominated by a few key builds and archetypes. I am really glad the dev's are not falling into the perfect balance trap, but I would still like to see a bit more diversity endgame, than there is a lot of other games at the moment. 

 

Come back abilities tie into this since they tend to be extremely powerful, and nothing is worse then when they try to balance archetypes by giving everyone access to similar but different abilities, that look good on paper, but in practical use are incomparable. Group res vs ST res, melee res on a tanky class vs slow travel time ranged res on a rdps. Dev's wave their hands, "look you have a rez it's all balanced!" when in practical use only one of them is truly effective.

 

Why have so many archetypes and builds, if everyone ends up running the same or nearly the same 2-3 builds on 3-4 archetypes?

 

Or at least that is my grumpy gripe for today.

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Guild Wars 2 actually has done it quite well and adds a level of complication to the game I enjoy, I just don't know if it belongs here.

 

Having an Archetype with an ultimate that resurrects the dead would be good addition I think, as long as the CD was stupid high and you couldn't spec into a play style that revolved around rapidly rezzing.


   Elder Scrolls Online - Templar/Nightblade Mains      Guild Wars 2 - Necromancer/Thief Mains    http://www.twitch.tv/sommazzatore

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I dunno I don't mind each support class having a short easy to use in combat battle rez. I'm used to playing Korean MMO's and they all do this. Every healer in those games has a very short CD, easy to cast in combat rez, or even several. It doesn't really have a big effect on PvP in those games so I don't know why some people are so afraid of it.

 

Finding a big enough window to get away from the fight to actually get off a long cast rez - and managing to get it off without being interrupted or dying yourself is a challange. Then the guy rezzes with less than full HP, no mana or stamina, and/or has some sort of temporary debuff. Amidst all that he has to try to stay alive while the enemy is likely watching this all go down and is ready to focus him. The support that just rezzed him is probably out of mana now as well. If the team manages to get through all of that alive and win, then good for them because they just outplayed you. And if they actually have an easy time with all of that, well then you were likely losing the battle anyway.

 

The benefit of something like this is that stupid quick kill combos are less of a balance issue if your support can manage to stay alive and rez people. So now you actually have a decent and fun fight on your hands instead of everyone cheesing it up.

 

 

When you're in a real guild (and by real guild, I mean a group of people that want to win at all costs), you're gonna have people make sacrifices. If bubba has to play a druid and bring resurrect, he's going to. I don't really see the problem in having supports be a necessary component of any group. Certain archetypes with certain build are going to be more valuable, and that's just it.

 

 

I agree with this. I see no problem in roles actually being required in this game. We've seen in several games now how well it works when you make them optional (it doesn't). 

Edited by Leiloni

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I don't feel resurrection or comeback mechanics works in Crowfall's theme of war. Healing as it is is a rare ability which incentivizes support characters, and I rather like the unforgiving nature of neglecting your health over the long term.

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Resurrections should not be a support class only skill.  I'd much rather see a Discipline.  If you've played War of the Roses or any of the Enemy Territory games, you'll have an idea of what I'm looking at.  In WotR, you'd slowly bring someone back up if they haven't yielded or been executed (or one shot precision hit).  In the ET series, you have the medic class that'd shock people back up if they haven't bled out or been finished off.  I think some form of Triage ability that brings people back up is a better idea for when combat is finished, so long as the character hasn't, to use D&D terms, reached less than -10 HP.  Maybe even have ways to carry bodies back for it.  I hesitate to think that support archetypes should have actual resurrections because we risk making certain archs too important.  FotM is one thing, an arch deemed absolutely necessary is not good design IMO in a game where we have no trinity.  All archetypes should be valuable but none should be deemed to that important, a proper mix of archetypes should suffice.  I'd rather we have abilities that prevent fatal damage for a short while with a small heal that have to be used at the right moments and other mechanics for supports that aren't full on resurrections.

 

The better mechanic, IMO, would be summoning, and that, too, should be Discipline rather than Archetype based.  This way, if you can't triage the person, you can at least summon them back once they've restocked from a respawn.  Hopefully this can be a semi automated process so you don't have summon bots, but then again my suggestion could result in triage bots, then again again in a major siege situation a forward camp would probably be a good strat and I doubt serious guilds would have a hard time finding enough people to fill these roles.

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I'm curious if death will factor in lore at all.

 

I've always found death systems to be very cheezy in most games and the "cause magic" reasoning has always seemed silly to me where we can just save our respawn place to the nearest town or rock with a click of a button.

 

If we are supposed to be "angels" or whatever and can "die" how does that factor into the overall theme of the game. If we can just pop back up, be it mid-fight or miles away in a temple, I'm hoping there is a little bit more to it.

 

Chronicles of Elyria's take on death sounds very interesting with different outcomes depending on the cause and player actions after the fact. Totally different take on mmos, but much more interesting than: die - click a button - pop back up magically - continue on la la la.

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Resurrection debuff is a nice idea, I've always supported resurrection mechanics as long as they make sense.

 

Though I don't think everyone that gets dropped to 0 health should go into a fallen state. Say if someone has 8k max health they should be given 10% of that as 'overkill health'.

So if someone comes along and more than 801 damage to you while you're on 1 health, you die. No fallen state, you're dead.

Though if you're just glanced with a basic attack or something that drops you just below 0 health you go into that fallen state.

 

Being able to crawl away from an ongoing fight would be pretty cool, bleeding out of course until someone resurrects you.


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My biggest issue with GW2 system is that the rally system and their low target limits really favors larger groups over smaller groups, and that is something I hope not to see become an issue in Crowfall. 

 

To be clear I am not saying smaller groups should have the advantage but I don't want it to be the case were the general tactic is simply stack every one together, and the side with the larger numbers wins, since they can chain res, they can rally, and they have more access to group res abilities. You can kill 10 for every 1 of your team that dies, but that 1 will rally that 10. 

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My biggest issue with GW2 system is that the rally system and their low target limits really favors larger groups over smaller groups, and that is something I hope not to see become an issue in Crowfall. 

 

To be clear I am not saying smaller groups should have the advantage but I don't want it to be the case were the general tactic is simply stack every one together, and the side with the larger numbers wins, since they can chain res, they can rally, and they have more access to group res abilities. You can kill 10 for every 1 of your team that dies, but that 1 will rally that 10. 

 

I can actually see that. I haven't WvW'd as much as I PvP'd in that game, so thats an interesting point. Most people aren't aware of the rallying aspect of GW2 comeback mechanics and I think they are just talking about the CC and the Damage that you can do while downed, not the rally factor.

Edited by Sommazzatore

   Elder Scrolls Online - Templar/Nightblade Mains      Guild Wars 2 - Necromancer/Thief Mains    http://www.twitch.tv/sommazzatore

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I have no problem with downed state. I actually prefer more distinction between hit point levels besides alive and dead, and a downed in the middle is a pretty simple solution. I only know the GW2 downed from the above mentioned though, which I didn't really like. My problem with GW2's downed state was that it was a goddamn annoying waste of time. Finishers take too much time, recovering takes time, then there is an escape ability that mostly will only waste more time before the inevitable death.

 

I would be okay with a downed state where you can use one slowly recharging emergency second wind ability that puts you back into battle with some health. That way once you're downed it won't take you long seconds to figure out you're dead or not: you either stand up, someone picks you up, or you're killed. Second wind can be also a tactical decision: shall I waste my recovery now, or use it in another battle? Naturally standing up when being ganked by several people is not a good idea, but you can still turn the tide in a 1v1 fight.

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When you're dead, you're dead. If you want to live longer, play better. 

 

I feel like with minimal healing, death comes way easier than in other games. If this is the case, could lead to extremely one sided fights, where there is no way to recover.

 

I personally think fights are more interesting with resurrects / comebacks, but there needs to be some kind of restriction.

Edited by helix

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I feel like with minimal healing, death comes way easier than in other games. If this is the case, could lead to extremely one sided fights, where there is no way to recover.

 

I personally think fights are more interesting with resurrects / comebacks, but there needs to be some kind of restriction.

 

I agree. Like I said earlier, if we have minimal healing and no rezzes, people are going to run around with whatever archetype combo has the most burst and CC. When you take away the ability to extend a fight, you lessen the amount of strategies that can arise in any given fight. If all you need to do is kill the other team quickly because their minimal heals are not enough to keep up and there is no rezzing, then that's all you're going to see. We've already seen it happen in other games.

Edited by Leiloni

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Personally, I'd rather have a mechanic where you could drag bodies back behind the front lines for only "medic" style archetypes (or a medic discipline) able to revive after a long cast time.  But that's probably getting too "sim" for most.

 

But out of the two options being mostly discussed, DF resurrection mechanic > GW2 mechanic, hands down.

Edited by mourne

"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

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