Camera control and movement

[Leiloni 1,039]

There was a post over on theDregs.net that had some interesting discussion so I wanted to move (hehe) some of the important points over here so folks can see them.  Here's the link: http://www.thedregs.net/topic/216-real-talk-current-state-of-combat/

 

The primary thing I wanted to mention was how so many people talk about how awkward and unintuitive (is that a word?) the movement feels. I can see how unnatural it feels even by watching videos.

 

I am not aware of any game that does controls the way Crowfall does. I'm not sure if the intention was to mimic TERA, but this is not how TERA does movement. TeoH's action combat video that we're all familiar with is not the best example of movement controls in TERA because he's actually not using standard controls in the TERA clips. He's using gamepad controls that allow you to use the odd unlocked aiming, he just removed the gamepad and is doing it with a mouse and KB. 99% of TERA players do not do this because as I'm sure many CF testers would agree, it just doesn't feel right.

 

TERA's default settings have two major difference from Crowfall. One being that every time you attack, your character auto faces forwards towards the camera. So while you can use WASD to move in various directions independent of the camera, the second you attack you automatically turn around. The second difference is (duh?) that all attacks go towards the direction of the camera and the reticule. Crowfall doesn't seem to do this. Some attacks go towards the reticule and some do not, so one moment the player is attacking forwards and the next they're attacking sideways, simply because they're looking in one direction and their character is faced another.

 

I think if Crowfall made these two major movement changes it would make things feel much more intuitive and smooth. People wouldn't have to think about where their character is facing and what skill they're using and if they need to turn around for it, etc. They just would know that they're looking at a dude they want to kill and the moment they hit a key, it will go in that direction regardless.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Leiloni

[ZYBAK 3,743]

I think a lot of the bad movement problems are due to the fact that Crowfall's movement is server side unlike most other games that do that client side with occasional checks to the server. Every movement you do has latency attached to it. That's why everyone starts sliding around uncontrollably when lag starts happening.

 

I'm sure they'll put more of the movement into the client.

[Leiloni 1,039]

I think a lot of the bad movement problems are due to the fact that Crowfall's movement is server side unlike most other games that do that client side with occasional checks to the server. Every movement you do has latency attached to it. That's why everyone starts sliding around uncontrollably when lag starts happening.

 

I'm sure they'll put more of the movement into the client.

 

This is not in relation to the slideyness. 

[ZYBAK 3,743]

I know what you mean. I just think a lot of the unintuitiveness really is due to the latency. It makes everything else feel weird.

[purplestreak 112]

This is really not a movement issue, it's a camera issue.  I'll be okay if the camera was refined to locked in combat only and auto-facing characters like you said. I just don't want a locked camera all the time. This is a game of large-scale combat, a free camera may be beneficial when not in combat.

Edited September 16, 2015 by purplestreak

[Leiloni 1,039]

This is really not a movement issue, it's a camera issue.  I'll be okay if the camera was refined to locked in combat only and auto-facing characters. I just don't want a locked camera all the time. This is a game of large-scale combat, a free camera may be beneficial when not in combat.

 

Yea maybe Pann can edit the thread title for me?

[ZYBAK 3,743]

Yea maybe Pann can edit the thread title for me?

 

You should be able to if I remember correctly. Try using the "Full Editor" or whatever it's called. It's a different button you click on after edit.

[kroked 216]

The server-side movement was a dream they should have known better than to try.  That sort of thing can only be done on a LAN.

The way you describe the camera and target lock is exactly how Neverwinter works too.  I know many crowfall fans who want the game to work like an FPS will be disappointed, but an internet MMO pretty much has to work like Tera and Neverwinter do because of client side prediction.  I wonder if artcraft has realized this yet.

Edited September 16, 2015 by kroked

[Helix 3,312]

There was a post over on theDregs.net that had some interesting discussion so I wanted to move (hehe) some of the important points over here so folks can see them. Here's the link: http://www.thedregs.net/topic/216-real-talk-current-state-of-combat/

 

The primary thing I wanted to mention was how so many people talk about how awkward and unintuitive (is that a word?) the movement feels. I can see how unnatural it feels even by watching videos.

 

I am not aware of any game that does controls the way Crowfall does. I'm not sure if the intention was to mimic TERA, but this is not how TERA does movement. TeoH's action combat

that we're all familiar with is not the best example of movement controls in TERA because he's actually not using standard controls in the TERA clips. He's using gamepad controls that allow you to use the odd unlocked aiming, he just removed the gamepad and is doing it with a mouse and KB. 99% of TERA players do not do this because as I'm sure many CF testers would agree, it just doesn't feel right.

 

TERA's default settings have two major difference from Crowfall. One being that every time you attack, your character auto faces forwards towards the camera. So while you can use WASD to move in various directions independent of the camera, the second you attack you automatically turn around. The second difference is (duh?) that all attacks go towards the direction of the camera and the reticule. Crowfall doesn't seem to do this. Some attacks go towards the reticule and some do not, so one moment the player is attacking forwards and the next they're attacking sideways, simply because they're looking in one direction and their character is faced another.

 

I think if Crowfall made these two major movement changes it would make things feel much more intuitive and smooth. People wouldn't have to think about where their character is facing and what skill they're using and if they need to turn around for it, etc. They just would know that they're looking at a dude they want to kill and the moment they hit a key, it will go in that direction regardless.

Right now the reticle is just kinda "tacked on" there, it looks a little janky. I can move the reticle camera independent from my character (which is one of my biggest complaints) So yea, anything that aligns what you're character is doing with the camera and the reticle is a good start.

Edited September 16, 2015 by helix

[zinnie 2,399]

From the testing I did, I got no real problems with the camera or reticule.. With better latency we will also be able to judge the combat better, right now its too laggy to test and give proper feedback on the combat itself.

[teh_ninjaneer 493]

DC Universe has movement similar to this, when you're not "locked on" to your target.  And I think Final Fantasy 14 does as well, when it's in "gamepad mode" or similar.

 

Some people think I'm kidding when I say Crowfall would play well with a gamepad.  I'm not.  

[Alford 45]

The server-side movement was a dream they should have known better than to try.  That sort of thing can only be done on a LAN.

The way you describe the camera and target lock is exactly how Neverwinter works too.  I know many crowfall fans who want the game to work like an FPS will be disappointed, but an internet MMO pretty much has to work like Tera and Neverwinter do because of client side prediction.  I wonder if artcraft has realized this yet.

Given that they're industry vets, I'm sure they realize this, but they're probably testing for a better method still.

[pang 4,174]

DC Universe has movement similar to this, when you're not "locked on" to your target.  And I think Final Fantasy 14 does as well, when it's in "gamepad mode" or similar.

 

Some people think I'm kidding when I say Crowfall would play well with a gamepad.  I'm not.  

With less than a dozen skills to use at a time and action reticle based combat I have no doubts playing with a console controller is viable. Now how viable, compared to mouse and Kb is a debate for another thread.

[Leiloni 1,039]

With less than a dozen skills to use at a time and action reticle based combat I have no doubts playing with a console controller is viable. Now how viable, compared to mouse and Kb is a debate for another thread.

 

I'm pretty sure it's a debate already being had in another thread.

[pang 4,174]

I'm pretty sure it's a debate already being had in another thread.

Not surprised, I generally try to avoid those threads as the "PC master race" folks get a bit touchy and angsty when anyone has the audacity to want to use different peripherals to play these games.

[Alford 45]

Not surprised, I generally try to avoid those threads as the "PC master race" folks get a bit touchy and angsty when anyone has the audacity to want to use different peripherals to play these games.

As far as I'm concerned, the best device is the one that's most comfortable.

 

Because who cares if you're winning, if you feel so good losing!

[teh_ninjaneer 493]

With less than a dozen skills to use at a time and action reticle based combat I have no doubts playing with a console controller is viable. Now how viable, compared to mouse and Kb is a debate for another thread.

 

My comments weren't meant to spark debate.  I was trying to point out that the current movement style resembles other MMOs which support (or designed for) gamepads.

Edited September 17, 2015 by teh_ninjaneer