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triforcer

Wearing a gray deathrobe at Brit Bank- Naked casters/stealth gankers/thieves

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We know that at least some rulesets will allow item looting.  And in any MMO with item loot, you must confront the scourge of nakedness.  

 

Glass cannon casters, stealthed assassin-types, and thieves (if Crowfall has thieving- fingers crossed!) are naturally drawn to this lifestyle.  This is for a simple reason- when you are fragile, your defense in PvP is some combination of (i) the element of surprise, (ii) bursting your opponent down quickly, (iii) lockdown abilities, and (iv) evasion abilities (roots, blinks, snares, etc.).  If it ever gets to the point where your opponent is acting fighting back, you've probably already lost the fight.  At the point where all your cooldowns are popped and the warrior in your face is out of your CC and has more than 10% health, having 15% resistance to crushing damage keeps you alive a whole extra third of a second.  

 

If it is more economical to gank or thieve while naked than while clothed, everyone will do that- you risk absolutely nothing.  Some ideas to prevent nakedness:

 

(1) Armor has to do more than mitigate damage- it needs to actually have an effect on your mana/stamina/HP pool.  I know the devs want to be careful to not create armor that is *best* in all circumstances.  But even if the mana/stamina/HP difference between different types of armor is relatively narrow, the difference between *any armor* and *nakedness* should be large (i.e., even the cheapest and lowest quality armor triples or quadruples your mana/stamina/HP compared to nakedness).

 

(2)  Different armors could have an actual effect on more than base mana/stamina/HP.  For example, each piece of leather armor could increase stealth level by X, each piece of silk armor could reduce effectiveness of CC abilities by Y, etc.   

 

(3) Similar to ESO, you could give crafters an ability to give a *set bonus* to certain pieces they craft (culminating in an actual ability or useful passive). 

 

I've worn my share of deathrobes while picking pockets at Brit Bank, ganked my share of solo questers as a naked halfling on Rallos Zek, etc.  But I hope that in Crowfall, we can find reasons for everyone's clothes to stay on. 

 

 

 

  

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I like the armor and clothes adding hp idea, maybe it should not be exactly HP, but another stat that has absolutely the same function and is added on top of your hp effectively increasing it. Something like "Protection".

Edited by rajah

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i like the concept of there being a pretty big disparity between naked, and not...but the delta between basic gear and the 'best' gear needs to be incremental, not exponential (like most games on the market are).

 

The problem with being naked vs not being naked is that if the difference is too large, the gankers/zergers will just wear the minimal amount of armor. The only people this will affect are the new players dropped into a campaign world.

 

It's almost impossible to counteract these people without screwing over everyone else as well, much like it's impossible to actually tax the rich without screwing everyone else because it's just passed along to the rest of the people.

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I had no idea this was an issue in MMOs and it sounds flippin' hilarious.

 

It sounds like the key issue is that armor for these kinds of characters does offer enough bonuses in these situations to warrant the risk of losing the armor. Thus to keep people wearing their armor a few actions could be taken:

  • Armor could provide a legitimate defense bonus.
  • Armor could provide bonuses vital to carrying our your combat role.
  • Looting could be taken away (Which would be a bit of a cop out)
  • As stated above, Armor could have innate survival mechanics attached to it. (Wear some long johns so you don't freeze to death.)

Of these ones I can think of, I'd personally make armor provide role bonuses and protect from weather effects. Of course, armor should help with defense, but on glass cannons the effect will always be to small for it to be useful to spend a lot of resources on it.

 

Let me rephrase that, the effect of armor on a high DPS type of character should be too much of a trade off on damage/maneuverability. In MOBAs, the meta becomes a nightmare when insta-gibbers get armor. I feel that armor for these kinds of characters is at its best when its only buying these characters just enough survivability to escape after an attack. Prolonged fighting should get them killed.​


I will be the best Forgemaster

I will make battle spades

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Pfft only noob bankthieves wore a grey robe, all the serious ones had dye buckets handy and maybe even a motley collection of hats, shoes, and gloves. 

 

Had to chase alot of the grey robed buggers off, they kept alerting all the marks. 

Edited by Zandur

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Never went grey robe, but I kept my death robes in the bank with black dye tubs and floppy hats.  I just had a whole bunch of DPed kryss or Spears handy, and bandies.  I would run around and PvP like that.

 

Sorry had to res this thread, too much to pass up.  Naked PvP was probably the best part of UO.

Edited by trik

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Add penalties to defense (automatic criticals on completely naked, 80% chance of criticals if you wear only 1 piece, 60% if you wear 2, etc) until someone is fully clothed. Make it so anyone attacking while naked is basically a peasant to be backhanded down by the real pvpers who geared up. 

 

Its like fighting zombies. One zombie should not be hard to kill, at all. An army of zombies can be scary if you're alone though.

Edited by vucar

aka honeybear

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i like the concept of there being a pretty big disparity between naked, and not...but the delta between basic gear and the 'best' gear needs to be incremental, not exponential (like most games on the market are).

 

This is probably the best cliff-notes version I've seen.

 

I do not care for gear/stat/level driven PvP in MMORPGs because it's the root of all evil in imbalanced / exclusionary PvP encounters.  On the other hand the quote in this post from dubanka hits the nail on the head, and answers the OPs post directly.

 

Less gear/stats driving PvP capability, more skill and/or attack-types based.  But NAKED versus someone wearing gear . . . probably relevant.

 

Nice, dubanka.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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The problem with being naked vs not being naked is that if the difference is too large, the gankers/zergers will just wear the minimal amount of armor. The only people this will affect are the new players dropped into a campaign world.

 

It's almost impossible to counteract these people without screwing over everyone else as well, much like it's impossible to actually tax the rich without screwing everyone else because it's just passed along to the rest of the people.

 

 

And I disagree Tycho.  This is an issue of Calibration, not whether the mechanism or method is appropriate.  All you've described is the fact Art+Craft will need to calibrate things properly so that it works as it should.  Agreed, and necessary for any mechanic that's deployed in a game, across the board, if it's to operate properly. 

 

The principle outlined by dubanka however is sound IMO.

 

The domain is from Naked to Armored, not armored to armored.  There should be a clear dis-incentive to run around naked or near so.  Apart from that gear should scale in smaller increments between each other (IMO).

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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Add penalties to defense (automatic criticals on completely naked, 80% chance of criticals if you wear only 1 piece, 60% if you wear 2, etc) until someone is fully clothed. Make it so anyone attacking while naked is basically a peasant to be backhanded down by the real pvpers who geared up. 

 

Its like fighting zombies. One zombie should not be hard to kill, at all. An army of zombies can be scary if you're alone though.

This unfortunately won't solve the issue. This will just cause people to throw on easily farmable lvl 1 gear to PvP in. Which is the equivalent of being naked. The point of fully lootable PvP is the risk of losing. But if everyone just runs around naked, or worse in farmable lvl 1 gear, then there is no point to fully lootable PvP. ACE needs to make gear relevant enough that people will risk losing it in PvP, but not strong enough that PvP comes down to a game of stats.

 

I personally think armor shouldn't give stats. It should do what it does in the real world, damage mitigation. Better well made gear gives more protection then poorly made gear. Also wearing less gear gives less protection, but more gear will slow you down.

 

I don't envy them, this will be a really hard task to accomplish.

Edited by Audit

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There could be scaling bonus damages for wearing a complete set coupled with negative scaling bonuses for not wearing a complete set.

 

 

Tier 1 set bonus 5 percent damage

 

Tier 2 set bonus 10 percent damage

 

Tier 3 set bonus 15-25 percent damage

 

Tier 4 set bonus 25-45 percent damage

 

Add a layer to this in that if you do not have a full set worn your damage receives a negative percentage.

Edited by nomadmerc

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Man, I see the words "tier 1 set bonus" and I think, "please no, please do not organize gear in Crowfall into "tiers" and "sets."

 

 

Just an example of something you may get for wearing a full set of cloth, med, heavy etc. Not necessary that all the cloth etc be a set but merely that it is all cloth of a certain material quality or crafting tier. 

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There are several things in the current design of Crowfall that will probably prevent the naked hordes :

  • Time to kill is higher than traditional MMORPG
  • Armors used in the tests have all kind of powerful stats
  • Basic gears will be pretty easy to acquire
  • Characters do not have discrete levels like most traditional MMORPG that increase stats massively upon leveling
  • The difference of strength between new players and veterans is way smaller than in traditional MMORPG
  • Most of the CC and powers are aimed manually and can be dodged or blocked by the players
  • CC can't be stacked indefinitely

 

Even if we max a power and set up the advantages, buffs and runes to benefit from extra stats, I'm sure we'll be highly inefficient once naked.

Edited by courant101

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There is a reason you form guilds/gangs.  How many naked people does it take to kill one guy in armor?  How many naked people does it take to kill a group of people already engaged with mobs who are already farming?  

 

If it only take 12 or 18 naked people to kill 6 fully armored trying to farm camps it will happen all the time.  More than likely it will only take 8 or so naked guys. You farm mobs and others will farm you.

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There is a reason you form guilds/gangs.  How many naked people does it take to kill one guy in armor?  How many naked people does it take to kill a group of people already engaged with mobs who are already farming?  

 

If it only take 12 or 18 naked people to kill 6 fully armored trying to farm camps it will happen all the time.  More than likely it will only take 8 or so naked guys. You farm mobs and others will farm you.

 

If the basic gears offer some good stats and are fairly easy to acquire, I see no reason for people to run naked.

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It would actually be preferable to me if naked people were completely or near-on incapable of combat, EVE style. If you want to have your economy and resources be important, there's no better way than to make 0 investment combat impossible. 

 

That's not to say I necessarily think you need to respawn naked- you could have a "death inventory" of pre-made loadouts you'd equip upon respawning, but with the caveat that they aren't free.

 

I think this is the simplest way to just abolish the whole issue. If someone knows there's a way to attack and/or profit from someone at virtually no risk to themselves, it's going to happen. To me, that just isn't interesting.

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