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baerin

Holding on to the Crowfall Vision

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One only needs to look at Wildstar's development to know what happens when you build a game that is too inaccessible and difficult for the average gamer.  For those that don't know... it's a recipe for failure.

 

Make the game as fun as possible for the most amount of people = success and longevity.

 

Make the game inaccessible, overly hard/complicated = empty servers

 

The only thing difficult about WS was the instances and even then not that overwhelming for skilled players, just that the PVE bunch are a weak and casual bunch. Would not be wise to draw experience from WS considering how completely different they are in all aspects, the hardcore PVP crowd doesn't share much with the sheep that like to play games like WS.


Member of The BlackHand Order

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My two cents comes from an experience that many PVPers will not consider coming from a legitimate PVP game to begin with, but here goes.

 

Early Monsterplay in Lord of the Rings Online (I can only speak to the early years, as I left the game about 3 years ago).  If you played a Monster (orc, spider or warg, aka "Creeps") you had zero gear.  That's right - zero, no slots, just whatever same rusty weapon graphic a trash monster gets.  Everyone was basically a toon with the sort of identical stats a PVE MOB has.  As time went on, they added consumables, but the core was the same.  You gained XP only through PVP kills of the Free Peoples and it was gained at a glacial pace.  As you leveled, again at a glacial pace, you could unlock some better skills.  But the theme and concept was that the Creeps were not equals one v one with the Free Peoples (aka "Freeps').  The Creeps average character had maybe 5-6 skills on their skill bar to hit, while a Freep had 15-20, many of which were stupidly overpowered PVE skills like being able to stun people for thirty seconds.

 

Many people who tried Monsterplay as Creeps could not stomach that inequality.  They got disgusted and left.  But for those who stayed, either through stubborness or masochism - it was IMO one of the best PVP camaraderies ever.

 

The veteran Creeps become well-known names and were respected because, Conan-like, they had pushed that wheel around the post so many times that everyone knew they had earned it.  The skilled veteran Creeps became legends.  Overall, since the Monsters knew that they could only triumph through numbers, they worked together, sometimes needing 5-6 Creeps to get one Freep kill.  They also developed a mentality that dying and losing meant nothing - you got off the ground and hurled yourself at the enemy once more.  Yes, it was harsh.  Yes, at times it wasn't working, as not very many people could stomach how steep the challenge was.  Eventually, I believe it got "balanced" but when I saw that was when I left - it just wasn't the same.  The old camaraderie was leaving and replaced by the same "me me me" that drives many MMO.

 

Playing Creepside in Lord of the Rings Monsterplay remains one of my best memories, not because it involved winning all the time.  It was because of the sense of community creepside.  And how, when you did win, you savored it and retold those stories over and over later.

 

I think Crowfall should investigate why it was that for some reason, this "worked" for a lot of people.  Having a sense of PVP challenge, building a sense of PVP community, doesn't have to include grinding gear, making sure all classes are equally balanced, etc.  Think back to some of the most pure fun you had as a child playing with a pile of sticks in the mud.  It doesn't have to be that complicated.

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Talk about remaining true to the 'vision' of Crowfall started pretty much as soon as AC started talking about the EK. Then there was the whole tab-target versus 'action' stuff. Throughout all of it, I think AC has been pretty consistent. IMHO a lot of this is us projecting our desires for the game onto AC. It's why I've backed off the forums a lot. Not healthy to get stressed about this, heh. We gotta trust AC will do the right thing. And if it's not to our liking, we just won't play. Life goes on. This is part of the price we pay for being involved so early in the process. There isn't a 10-page overview telling us the Way It Will Be. We're getting paragraphs at a time, subject to change.


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If you were looking for a great example of how a games vision can be suffocated by a producer, look no further.

I have been playing a lot of Black Desert recently, and came across this article from a few months ago. 

 

At the start of the article the vision is fresh and new, and Pearl Abyss is a young upstart game developer looking to shake things up, and change the way people play MMO's.

 

As it progresses though you see more and more of the influence Daum (the publisher) is having on the game. Its vision begins to die, features are removed to make the game smoother and more "accessible." A little less difficult, a little less unique, and a little more profitable.

 

 

All that said, I came here to express my appreciation for ArtCraft, and Crowfall. Thank you for taking the risk of crowdfunding, and prioritizing Crowfalls vision over it's profits. Stay the course!

 

Yes, but I see no reasons at all to click on the panic button and create this thread to tell ACE to keep on their game vision. 

Edited by mythx

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Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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Yes, but I see no reasons at all to click on the panic button and create this thread to tell ACE to keep on their game vision. 

I think it's ok for people to discuss the crowfall vision and what their perspective of how it is coming along is.... as long as they remain calm and collected.... the only time i find it silly is when people get all hyperbolic and act like that sky has fallen all based on some out of context piece of information.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Yes, but I don`t understand the OP, but I admit I get easily confused.

Maybe he needs to elaborate why he feels this thread was even necessary in the beginning - maybe OP was worried about something I missed in his content?

And there are no news at the moment that would endanger ACE vision and their plans about the game in my opinion.

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Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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Yes, but I don`t understand the OP, but I admit I get easily confused.

 

 

 

 

 

I came here to express my appreciation for ArtCraft, and Crowfall. Thank you for taking the risk of crowdfunding, and prioritizing Crowfalls vision over it's profits. Stay the course!

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It`s like talking about a NHL player performance: Rich Nash and he had a record last year with the Rangers, but let`s create a topic about Rick Nash performance and how hard he flop when the playoffs start just for the sake of being worried about something, and some Rangers fans does exactly that and some go so far to even trade him for lack of playoffs goals.

 

Well, it`s not even related to this topic or discussion, but you see the same pattern of being worried about something concerning, ACE and Crowfall.

 

So /keep on being worried guys.  :D

Edited by mythx

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Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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As far as wildstar goes I tried it at launched payed for it and everything and I couldn't stand to play past level 20 same old boring crap."But you have to  play for X hours !" Whatever I could see exactly where it was and wasn't going. I played vanilla wow and people suffer from a serious case of nostalgic rose colored glasses about that game.

 

Now ain't that the truth.


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Yeah, I was confused from the start since you referenced the producer rather than the publisher. It's hard to identify certain roles in the game industry, but publishers are pretty distinct.

 

It's a pretty obvious and common place sorry once that's recognized. ACE avoided publishers, and that's the primary reason I supported this game. I'm not happy with all the sales and gameplay choices made in Crowfall, but I hope is better for lack of a publisher, and I hope the industry punishes weak publisher decisions til investors are forced to make more intelligent choices in design prerogative...

 

But whales keep them happy...


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I think people make gear out to be a bigger issue than it is... sure there are some games that are extremely pay2win or have the very extreme of vertical progression, but good players generally know how to overcome gear, or get good gear themselves....

 

It kind of reminds me of how gamers complain about "elo hell" in various competitive games, but good players are good enough to get past elo hell. 

 

Attaining gear in MMOs can often require skill and/or social skills...

 

I don't think the gear progression will be so steep in crowfall but it will exist to a degree... if it didn't they might as well just remove gear from the game which would be kind of silly for an mmorpg. 

 

very simplistically...

 

gear 'benefit' should be an incremental progression, not an exponential one.

 

taking the time, spending the energy, resources etc. should be, has to be, important for the economy to work...that means 'the best' gear has to be 'worth grinding' for....the concept of 'worth it' is what has been distorted in a lot of games.

 

in a competitive pvp environment, to me that means 5-10% on the top end, over the next tier of equipment. If the delta gets much more than that, a contest becomes less about who/which team is better, and more about who is wielding more Swords of Awesomesauce.

 

IMO, it's pretty bad design when gear disparity is the primary factor at play in a fight.

Edited by dubanka

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very simplistically...

 

gear 'benefit' should be an incremental progression, not an exponential one.

 

taking the time, spending the energy, resources etc. should be, has to be, important for the economy to work...that means 'the best' gear has to be 'worth grinding' for....the concept of 'worth it' is what has been distorted in a lot of games.

 

in a competitive pvp environment, to me that means 5-10% on the top end, over the next tier of equipment. If the delta gets much more than that, a contest becomes less about who/which team is better, and more about who is wielding more Swords of Awesomesauce.

 

IMO, it's pretty bad design when gear disparity is the primary factor at play in a fight.

Yea but i've seen people also make gear out to be a bigger deal than it actually is/was.

 

A good example would be WoW where people constantly accused the arena system of being so gear dependent, but good players could easily attain the ratings to get good gear with a bit of resourcefulness even if they were on fresh max level characters...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Yea but i've seen people also make gear out to be a bigger deal than it actually is/was.

 

A good example would be WoW where people constantly accused the arena system of being so gear dependent, but good players could easily attain the ratings to get good gear with a bit of resourcefulness even if they were on fresh max level characters...

 

ability to get x tier of gear should not be confused with the impact that the gear has.

 

If tier 5 gear is twice as good as tier 4 gear...that's wrong...regardless if 'good players can attain it' or not.

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ability to get x tier of gear should not be confused with the impact that the gear has.

 

If tier 5 gear is twice as good as tier 4 gear...that's wrong...regardless if 'good players can attain it' or not.

Not really... since a good player can overcome the difference....


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Not really... since a good player can overcome the difference....

But only if the increase of the power level doesnt make skill obsolete.


 

I AM ME!
I love you all.

 

 

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Not really... since a good player can overcome the difference....

 

still hung up on the 'good player' angle...eh?

 

but I assume you're working under the assumption that a 'good player' with T4 gear could be a not-quite-so-good player with tier 5 gear...because, well, they're a good player.

 

But this is a bad comparison.

 

if you put good player in T4 gear, vs. good player in T5 gear, where the T5 gear is 'twice as good' as T4 gear...working under the assumption of comparable skill levels, the T5 player should always win, as the advantage presented by the equipment presents too much of a hill to climb. The only scenario where the T4 player wins is one where the T5 player is already significantly disadvantaged by some action / even unrelated to the conflict.

 

all this would mean is that to be competetive you have to be in x set of gear...and until you get that gear, you can't effectively participate in the meta game.

Which is, imo, stupid.

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still hung up on the 'good player' angle...eh?

 

but I assume you're working under the assumption that a 'good player' with T4 gear could be a not-quite-so-good player with tier 5 gear...because, well, they're a good player.

 

But this is a bad comparison.

 

if you put good player in T4 gear, vs. good player in T5 gear, where the T5 gear is 'twice as good' as T4 gear...working under the assumption of comparable skill levels, the T5 player should always win, as the advantage presented by the equipment presents too much of a hill to climb. The only scenario where the T4 player wins is one where the T5 player is already significantly disadvantaged by some action / even unrelated to the conflict.

 

all this would mean is that to be competetive you have to be in x set of gear...and until you get that gear, you can't effectively participate in the meta game.

Which is, imo, stupid.

Obviously if 2 people are equal in skill the one with better gear should be at an advantage... but mmorpg pvp isn't about being equal... If a good player in worse gear can overcome an average player in better gear that's all you need, because no matter what that system still rewards people for being good, and in pvp that's all that matters. 

 

People make gear out to be a bigger issue than it actually is, because they themselves have trouble overcoming it, but there's nothing in the rulebook that says everyone is entitled to get to the top, you should have to earn it, by you know, being good. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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