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VIKINGNAIL

Hardcore ruleset suggestion: No SCT, No healthbars...

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I think it would be cool if like some other aspects of the game you could adjust or completely turn off scrolling combat text and healthbars...

 

It creates some pretty interesting play where players must use their understanding of the game and yomi to figure out how effective they are being in battle, when to keep fighting, when to run etc....

 

The more I thought about it the more I realized that these are kinda convenience based features that are quite handy i'll admit, but kinda dull the development of natural game sense.

 

Yes there are tactics that can develop with absolute knowledge of things as well, but I don't think those really focus on the intuitive side of things as much. 

 

It's also just another way to make player skill and understanding matter even more and create really grueling and tough rulesets without forcing it upon the rest of the playerbase...  ACE has a really neat opportunity with their design to really give those extreme hardcore players what they want without ruining things for players with other preferences, and vice versa....


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I heard playing with both eyes closed is pretty hardcore as well...

 

All that visual information is just pure convenience we've gotten used to over the years.

This can be overcome with a deep understanding of the game, especially in the audio department, and combine that with Yomi and we have a wonderful new experience, never seen before. Truly challangeing and have I forgotten to say, HARDCORE?

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I heard playing with both eyes closed is pretty hardcore as well...

 

All that visual information is just pure convenience we've gotten used to over the years.

This can be overcome with a deep understanding of the game, especially in the audio department, and combine that with Yomi and we have a wonderful new experience, never seen before. Truly challangeing and have I forgotten to say, HARDCORE?

I think this kind of response illustrates a good point.... When did we get to a point where playing without a few conveniences could be compared to playing with eyes closed....

 

FPS players play without the absolute knowledge of how much they've done to their opponent all of the time, and it causes all sorts of interesting dynamics. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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There should at least be some visual/audio indicator on the character to make it apparent they've been injured/are on their last legs.  Unless my character is supposed to be too stupid to be able to tell that the enemy looks injured/tired.

 

  I would argue you lose Yomi without some health indicators because you don't know how much health the opponent has, and they don't know how much you have.  If you each know, then you can make assumptions about how your opponent will act based on both of those numbers, and try to counter.  Your opponent does the same.  

 

It still exists to an extent without any indicators, but it's mostly guesswork at that point, which I don't think is near as interesting as knowing that your opponent knows they can finish you, anticipating the finisher, and using it against them in some way.  

 

EDIT: to be clear, I probably just wouldn't play on this rule set because I don't see it being any more fun, but if it exists I don't really care either way.  Also, I don't really buy the FPS argument when the TTK can be less than a second in those games.

Edited by yamix

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Something else to add here is that IRL you know you are being poked at, bit, shot or damaged in some way.  Without those in game you cannot react accordingly.  Yes it would be fun as an archer to pick off someone slowly, one arrow at a time with spacing for them not to know I am shooting them from behind that tree.  But if this were an actual situation I would feel that arrow to the knee and know to react accordingly.


Kloke

Shadowbane / Server: War / Guild: DHL / Thief: Yin / Scout: Plexiglassdragon

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There should at least be some visual/audio indicator on the character to make it apparent they've been injured/are on their last legs.  Unless my character is supposed to be too stupid to be able to tell that the enemy looks injured/tired.

 

  I would argue you lose Yomi without some health indicators because you don't know how much health the opponent has, and they don't know how much you have.  If you each know, then you can make assumptions about how your opponent will act based on both of those numbers, and try to counter.  Your opponent does the same.  

 

It still exists to an extent without any indicators, but it's mostly guesswork at that point, which I don't think is near as interesting as knowing that your opponent knows they can finish you, anticipating the finisher, and using it against them in some way.  

 

EDIT: to be clear, I probably just wouldn't play on this rule set because I don't see it being any more fun, but if it exists I don't really care either way.  Also, I don't really buy the FPS argument when the TTK can be less than a second in those games.

I think it's pretty easy when you have absolute knowledge to choose the correct course of action....

 

The TTK doesn't really have anything to do with it... In CSGO for example you understand bullet damages and you put reads on how much you did to an opponent based on where you think your bullets hit, what their economical state was etc....

 

A very simple example is let's say there is a guy awping long A corner on dust2, let's say you peek him with an ak and you see that you probably got 3 hits on him for around 80 damage but you missed the headshot as he peeked away.  At this point yomi comes into play... you can quickly calculate in a fraction of a second how long it will take you to close the distance on him before a potential re-peek and overwhelm him... will he re-peek you putting you at risk to get taken down by his awp?  Because you did around 80 damage to him based on your sense of the game (no indicators needed) do you run him down knowing he will displace and relocate to take another long distance fight, or that he relocated simply because he only has 20 health left and is afraid that you knowing that you tagged him up might have been followed up immediately by a grenade?  Do you know he is a very high level player that will factor all that in and try to surprise you with a low health aggressive re-peek thinking you will be caught in transit towards his corner to try and run him down? 

 

TTK has never factored into the depth and ability to read a game... it only factors in to how punishing you want mistakes to be....


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Something else to add here is that IRL you know you are being poked at, bit, shot or damaged in some way.  Without those in game you cannot react accordingly.  Yes it would be fun as an archer to pick off someone slowly, one arrow at a time with spacing for them not to know I am shooting them from behind that tree.  But if this were an actual situation I would feel that arrow to the knee and know to react accordingly.

Well often in games there arise situations where you get caught from the side or behind, and awareness factors in to that.  It takes some players a very long time to figure out where they are being attacked from... some are able to pinpoint it very quickly, it's another thing where skill and understanding play a big role. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Can you explain how exactly this will make the game harder?

 

Personally I can see it changing the dynamics slightly where people will just balls to the wall on eachother till someone drops but not as a form of extra challenge.

 

With all the gearing options won't know your opponents max HP, resists other then armor type, and with no indicator on how hard your hitting an opponent I don't see how this will increase "yomi" in your regular run of the mill gameplay. Maybe in duels after you have played out a few with someone?

 

Still if enough people wanted to play on a server with little to no feedback from gameplay then more power to them I suppose.

 

 

EDIT: 

 

Looking at your AWP example it works because you know all that information already and can count shots fairly easily. So you still can reasonably assume what choices your enemy can make but if you take away that information it falls apart. Just becoming standard head games at that point because you cannot make an informed decision based on his remaining HP.

Edited by Zandur

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I would argue TTK matters a lot, because if that AWP wasn't so dangerous (could not quickly take 100% of my health), and I knew I had mostly killed him, nothing much would stop me from rushing in at that point. 

 

I have little knowledge of CSGO specifically, but damage was much more consistent (minus headshots) in CS and other shooters than it is in RPGs.  You also tend to get an indicator of some kind when you do hit someone.  As I recall, CS had a static amount of health (plus body armor, possibly) AND visual indication when you hit someone and I believe they would even get bloodied up (could be thinking of another game), as well.

 

In an RPG, wIth no indicators, not only am I guessing if I crit or even hit at all (perhaps they barely dodged), in a potentially large damage range , I have no idea if they are a high health or low health build of that class.  Not only is it terribly unsatisfying to not know if you even hit someone, you are basically stuck in one of three states "I think I can finish him" (guessing) or "This fight has a while to go", or "I'm boned".  You have no reasonable way of knowing if your opponent thinks you are low or not. 

 

 You could try the counting cards approach,but in most RPGs that really isn't practical given how many variables there are.  What kind of armor are they wearing?  Did I crit? Did they have some kind of shielding up? How much health did they start the fight with?

 

Something as simple as the opponent looking bloodied fixes this, but how far is that from a health bar?

 

Again, if people want it, that's fine I just don't see the appeal.

Edited by yamix

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Can you explain how exactly this will make the game harder?

 

Personally I can see it changing the dynamics slightly where people will just balls to the wall on eachother till someone drops but not as a form of extra challenge.

 

With all the gearing options won't know your opponents max HP, resists other then armor type, and with no indicator on how hard your hitting an opponent I don't see how this will increase "yomi" in your regular run of the mill gameplay. Maybe in duels after you have played out a few with someone?

 

Still if enough people wanted to play on a server with little to no feedback from gameplay then more power to them I suppose.

 

 

EDIT: 

 

Looking at your AWP example it works because you know all that information already and can count shots fairly easily. So you still can reasonably assume what choices your enemy can make but if you take away that information it falls apart. Just becoming standard head games at that point because you cannot make an informed decision based on his remaining HP.

It adds more depth when you have to use intuitiveness to figure out the state of something instead of being told absolutely. 

 

But in my awp example you are deducing that information instead of having the game tell you it... and you are making decisions based on what you have deduced, instead of the game giving you all the information and just asking you to input the cookbook recipe correct choice. 

 

I would argue TTK matters a lot, because if that AWP wasn't so dangerous (could not quickly take 100% of my health), and I knew I had mostly killed him, nothing much would stop me from rushing in at that point. 

 

I have little knowledge of CSGO specifically, but damage was much more consistent (minus headshots) in CS and other shooters than it is in RPGs.  You also tend to get an indicator of some kind when you do hit someone.  As I recall, CS had a static amount of health (plus body armor, possibly) AND visual indication when you hit someone and I believe they would even get bloodied up (could be thinking of another game), as well.

 

In an RPG, wIth no indicators, not only am I guessing if I crit or even hit at all (perhaps they barely dodged), in a potentially large damage range , I have no idea if they are a high health or low health build of that class.  Not only is it terribly unsatisfying to not know if you even hit someone, you are basically stuck in one of three states "I think I can finish him" or "This fight has a while to go", or "I'm boned".  You have no reasonable way of knowing if your opponent thinks you are low or not. 

 

 You could try the counting cards approach,but in most RPGs that really isn't practical given how many variables there are.  What kind of armor are they wearing?  Did I crit? Did they have some kind of shielding up? How much health did they start the fight with?

 

Something as simple as the opponent looking bloodied fixes this, but how far is that from a health bar?

 

Again, if people want it, that's fine I just don't see the appeal.

The visual indications in CSGO are not very accurate so at the top level people don't really use them.... the only visual indication they play off of is whether they felt either their crosshair or spray pattern hit the guy, but all the blood and bullet impacts are not accurate and do not match from client and server side. 

 

I agree that the counting cards approach isn't practical for most people, but there is an extreme pocket that can factor in a great deal of information at once and respond well to it. 

 

I'm basically just looking for knobs and switches they can create to cater to many different preferences... now obviously if only 10 people were interested in some ruleset because it was just too extreme then they shouldn't run with it... but they should at least push that hardcore end of the spectrum til they find the point at which it is too much to field a healthy population.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I think it would be cool if like some other aspects of the game you could adjust or completely turn off scrolling combat text and healthbars...

 

It creates some pretty interesting play where players must use their understanding of the game and yomi to figure out how effective they are being in battle, when to keep fighting, when to run etc....

 

The more I thought about it the more I realized that these are kinda convenience based features that are quite handy i'll admit, but kinda dull the development of natural game sense.

 

Yes there are tactics that can develop with absolute knowledge of things as well, but I don't think those really focus on the intuitive side of things as much. 

 

It's also just another way to make player skill and understanding matter even more and create really grueling and tough rulesets without forcing it upon the rest of the playerbase...  ACE has a really neat opportunity with their design to really give those extreme hardcore players what they want without ruining things for players with other preferences, and vice versa....

 

Ignore them, typical suggestion box straw man arguments.  

 

I think this would be fun, and the devs said that if enough people want a particular campaign style one season they won't mind putting it in, as long as its reasonable, and I think this would qualify as reasonable.

 

Though I will say that I doubt it will be too popular, just because for most people, full looting, friendly fire and long walks after death are already hardcore enough for them.

 

I'd resuggest this after launch though, not a bad idea.


   Elder Scrolls Online - Templar/Nightblade Mains      Guild Wars 2 - Necromancer/Thief Mains    http://www.twitch.tv/sommazzatore

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Still if enough people wanted to play on a server with little to no feedback from gameplay then more power to them I suppose.

 

That is my position.

 

And for the record, when I typed 'ignore them, typical suggestion box straw man arguments', you guys (Zandur and yamix) hadn't posted yet. Or it hadn't loaded. Wasn't talking about you guys.

Edited by Sommazzatore

   Elder Scrolls Online - Templar/Nightblade Mains      Guild Wars 2 - Necromancer/Thief Mains    http://www.twitch.tv/sommazzatore

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Totally dig the no HP bar/floating numders thing and see how it would change the feel, flow, and dynamics. However, there would still need to be some visual indicators like limping, bleeding FX, etc or it would be purely blind combat.

 

Take the CS:GO example where it's a 5v5 pro style match. All of those calculations that a player has to do to gain advantage and increase combat awareness works because it's a controlled combat environment.

 

If we shift over to a different format say Gun Game where players don't wait to respawn after the round is over. Keeping track of which gun did what to which player is nigh impossible because the battlefield shifts too rapidly thus each gun fight is treated as if players are at full HP.

 

Now as far as we know players won't be respawning in the amidst combat but the sizes of combat participants will fluctuate constantly and range widely depending on various circumstances.

 

So what will these visual ques be and how much will we need when the HP bar is removed? I don't know but it would be another cool thing to have adjusted to find the sweet spot to make an engaging game.

Edited by Keaggan

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That is my position.

 

And for the record, when I typed 'ignore them, typical suggestion box straw man arguments', you guys (Zandur and yamix) hadn't posted yet. Or it hadn't loaded. Wasn't talking about you guys.

 

No worries.

 

The server type probably would not interest me because I enjoy having feedback when I play.

 

That being said they ever got to a point where they could have some visual feedback like blood dripping, a dangling arm, characters limping, or even just a couple different visual states to give an indication of my opponents state instead of a HP bar then I would certanly give it a try.

 

ARMA uses a system like that and it's pretty fun though I found it can be difficult to know what's exactly wrong at times since you don't actually feel your character's pain.

Edited by Zandur

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No worries.

 

The server type probably would not interest me because I enjoy having feedback when I play.

 

That being said they ever got to a point where they could have some visual feedback like blood dripping, a dangling arm, characters limping, or even just a couple different visual states to give an indication of my opponents state instead of a HP bar then I would certanly give it a try.

 

ARMA uses a system like that and it's pretty fun though I found it can be difficult to know what's exactly wrong at times since you don't actually feel your character's pain.

Yeah, for me it's having SOME kind of indication.  At that point I find it much more interesting.  Proper sound effects on hit (and maybe different on crit) and some kind of indication that the opponent is injured and *roughly* to what degree like you mentioned would be something I would try.

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Yeah, for me it's having SOME kind of indication.  At that point I find it much more interesting.  Proper sound effects on hit (and maybe different on crit) and some kind of indication that the opponent is injured and *roughly* to what degree like you mentioned would be something I would try.

I don't mind indicators like blood or wounds or sound indicators as much because they still require you to process things in a certain way... just giving you floating numbers and a healthbar is so boring to me now though... I feel like it is a giant crutch... I understand why it was used in the tab target days... but we arent there anymore.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Yeah, for me it's having SOME kind of indication.  At that point I find it much more interesting.  Proper sound effects on hit (and maybe different on crit) and some kind of indication that the opponent is injured and *roughly* to what degree like you mentioned would be something I would try.

 

Yup, and if a MMO ever got the the point where you had damage to specific body areas with corresponding feed back (audio, visual, different injury states and it's impact on characters) then id gladly leave HP bars behind forever. 

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Yup, and if a MMO ever got the the point where you had damage to specific body areas with corresponding feed back (audio, visual, different injury states and it's impact on characters) then id gladly leave HP bars behind forever. 

 

So true, I'd love to turn off my music and listen to "ow my arm" "my custard leg" "BOOM HEADSHOT" with 100 different characters saying at the same time. Ever play Planetside 2?

 

Need a medic

Watch your back, infilitrator in the area

Need repairs

Is there a medic here?

Heavy Assault spotted

Spotted a Vanguard

Thanks

Live free in the NC

Is that all you got?

Need ammunition

Enemy medic spotted

 

Now sprinkle in some explosions and platoon voice chat, throw all of that in a span of 5 seconds, and you want me to listen to a player say he got an owwy on his knee so I can concentrate on the knee for the 3 count like it's WWE?

 

Save it for your mobas. It has no place in MMORPGs. It's supposed to be massive and you guys are worried about small scale combat.

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