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Combat Chat V - Official discussion thread

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The Legio may be getting more MASS (3:45)?!  :D

 

 

Pure comedy when you are a giant horse whose rear can barely fit into a doorway, and you get flung like a doll off the keep wall xD !

 

 

I do love the direction ACE is going with the Legionnaire as "action" support. I played most of my test matches as Legio and felt it was challenging and so fun trying to improve my gameplay with it each testing period. Look forward to seeing how the archetype develops :) 


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Some thoughts on combos / blocking. I finally got to play in the test on Sunday for the first time. Every team I was in (except one game with a Leggo) was me (Knight) and 2 confessors. It felt like almost every other team I encountered and fought against was also 2 confessors + other. I could barely land the odd attack on the confessors running all over the place, let alone any hope of a whole combo chain.

 

At one point my team of 3 spent like 5 minutes chasing a single confessor around the map before we gave up. Even when I landed my chain pulls, it would pull him like 1/3 of the distance back to me and he would just keep running long before we ever caught up. My charge seemed a little broken compared to what I had seen in some of the streams I watched - it just didn't travel very far at all.

 

Chasing can be tough if the person being chased is smart, but it's possible to run them down. That's really the strength of the legionnaire moreso than the knight.

 

For the charge, you need to hold the button down. Originally you pressed the button and the charge went a set distance in the designated direction. At the end you could execute a combo that would do a short stun. They changed it so that now you hold the button to charge and when you release it, the charge stops, so you can go as short or far (up to whatever the max is) as you want. If you go at least 5 yards (meters?) you will automatically execute the move that does the stun. Charge can be difficult to use but if your target is running in a straight line away from you, then you can catch them and stun them. Or if you are toe to toe with another player, you can use charge to push them 5 yards and stun them.

 

It was a little frustrating that there was no way for me to lock someone down for even a short period of time. All of knights slows, stuns, or knockdowns are 2-3 moves deep in a combo tree. There is no possible way to Land any of the CC before your target just runs away.

 

I've been playing, almost exclusively as knight, since they let in the first wave of alpha 1s. Staying in melee range takes some practice. You will get better at it, but good players will still find ways to get out of range at times. That's just the way it is. The combination of charge, sprint, chain pull and stuns gives you lots of tools. If you can't get the charge stun off, use the #3 stun (I can never remember the names of abilities). That is only 2 abilities deep so it's quicker to get off than the #4 stun.

 

That brings me to blocking. I quickly burned through all my stamina simply sprinting around trying in vain to get in range to land attacks, so I had no stamina left to actually block with. I understand why you want animation locking, but I would much prefer animation locking like in Black Desert. The combat in that game is so fluid, and even as a melee I have no trouble "sticking" to targets despite the animation locking. There animations allow you to move around within them and it greatly mitigates these issues. Even in Skyforge the basic "L-Click" combo makes you move toward your target for a very long way. Despite being stuck in the animation, you can stay on top of your target and not be kited endlessly.

 

I don't have a lot of experience with animation locking, so I won't comment on that, but I will say that melee shouldn't be able to stick to their target all the time. The other guy needs to have a chance to get away.

 

Regarding blocking, I don't use it as much as maybe I should, but I find it tough to find the right moments to use it outside of the obvious block of a stun (so glad they added that). If I'm 1 on 1 vs another player, what will be more beneficial to me? Block 70% of his attack, or do 100% of my own attack? While blocking, I can't move and rotation is slow. I can only block in 1 direction so if there are multiple enemies around me, moving is usually a better defensive strategy.

 

I can see block being very useful in situations where we can bottleneck an entrance and protect the ranged players behind us while they rain destruction down on the enemy, but there aren't too many places in the game where we can do that. Maybe at the entrance to the castle, but that's about it. The room with the fire has 2 other entrances, so it isn't ideal for that sort of strategy. Beyond that, the lack of voice chat or knowing who we are going to be playing with before the match starts makes it difficult to execute such strategies. 

 

Spending the whole game running around after targets and barely using abilities is just not fun. I hope you can do something to address this. Aside from those pretty large issues I'm impressed with the state of the game thus far. I just really hope you don't overlook the melees!

 

Like I said, you will get better at it. I feel like the current tools we have are sufficient. Of course, we have no idea what sort of tools we'll get from promotions and disciplines, or what sort of tools other archetypes will get, so there's a long way to go before we can make any real judgment on it.

 

My responses in bold.

Edited by Arkade

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I haven't seen anyone suggest this.. sooo.... here it goes:

 

I know that pre-alpha hunger dome 1.0 ends this Friday and that pre-alpha hunger dome 1.1 is going to happens soon.. and yeah.. I get it..., it's only for those lucky Alpha 1 backer.. and the poorer crowd are only gonna get to test like.. 1 year from now.. maybe even later.. and yeah.. there is a point behind it and all.. BUT,

 

I'd like to recall on Arnold Schwarzenegger's 2nd rule of success: "Break some rules"

 

Don't you guys think it's maybe time to allow EVERY backer into the server... like at least for a weekend? 

Please????
 

Pretty Please?????

Edited by PhatPingu

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http://www.legend-gaming.net

Pingu - Member

---------------------------"Winter is coming"---------------------------

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I haven't seen anyone suggest this.. sooo.... here it goes:

 

I know that pre-alpha hunger dome 1.0 ends this Friday and that pre-alpha hunger dome 1.1 is going to happens soon.. and yeah.. I get it..., it's only for those lucky Alpha 1 backer.. and the poorer crowd are only gonna get to test like.. 1 year from now.. maybe even later.. and yeah.. there is a point behind it and all.. BUT,

 

I'd like to recall on Arnold Schwarzenegger's 2nd rule of success: "Break some rules"

 

Don't you guys think it's maybe time to allow EVERY backer into the server... like at least for a weekend? 

 

Please????

 

Pretty Please?????

There servers can't handle hundreds and you want tens of thousands? 

 

They already broke some rules and put Alpha 1 testers into the Pre-Alpha. :P 


 

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@Blair: I'm not sure how to interpret your comments on hardware except for elitist and condescending. I understand that minimum specs are a fact of life, and I count myself fortunate to have access to great hardware. But our community has many players on older hardware who will be turning down the settings to 'Low' and playing for the love of the game. I would hate to see ACE alienate those players.

I wouldn't be so sensitive about it, hardware escalation is one of those PC gamer realities. Modern games are getting better and better at being compatible anyway.

 

But they are developing a future game with some pretty hefty features. I'd expect it to work on current hardware or quality 2013 hardware, anything beyond that is good fortune. Part of being a PC gamer is struggling with progressively more advanced system demands, but it comes hand in hand with expanded features.

 

As for the combat chat, it's nice to see the game progress. The only suggestion I'd offer is that the chain pull reduce pull force dramatically to be much more practical. It isn't necessary to force the pull to produce a specific result. Simply pulling the foe a few meters closer and knocking them down would be much more practical. If they are far away,it would only drag them half way and knock them down in front of you. If they are near you and traveling laterally, they may slide in beside you in a knocked down state. Chained targets shouldn't be ripped from their position and thrown, they should be dragged across the ground. Properly factored ground drag would help reduce some of the overshot.

 

Beyond that, I hope you move the chain pull to the Minotaur later, there's no sensible reason for the Knight to be utilizing that method but that's me ????

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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There servers can't handle hundreds and you want tens of thousands? 

 

They already broke some rules and put Alpha 1 testers into the Pre-Alpha. :P

 

Just let MEEEE play then... :P 

Pretty pleeeeeeeeeease with sugar on top?


Lf6MJUL.png

http://www.legend-gaming.net

Pingu - Member

---------------------------"Winter is coming"---------------------------

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My responses in bold.

Thanks for replying Arkade - appreciate the tips. I'm sure I need to practice some things, but a couple comments.

 

I certainly never expect to have 100% uptime on my target. That would be ridiculously unbalanced. I really enjoy archer archetypes as well, so I certainly see things from both perspectives. That said, most games are typically balanced to allow you partial up times on your target.

 

Let me take a WoW example for simplicity's sake. I played an MS warrior for like 6 years. Loved the class. I also had a Mage and a hunter that played extensively as well. So let's take a hypothetical Mage vs. warrior matchup. Warrior basically had hamstring to slow, and charge/intercept to gap close. Mages had blink to escape, frost nova to root, and polymorph to CC/make distance. The fight came down to managing cool downs and counter playing your opponent to try and maximize uptime on attack. The warrior could rely on being able to charge/hamstring and have a few seconds of damage on the target before they could distance themselves. Hamstring cool down time was abut twice as long as the "uptime" of the slow effect it provided.

 

Now a good mage would see you coming and polymorph you before you could get the charge off, or while you were mid charge. Thus you couldn't get the hamstring to hit as you would be polymorphed. Mage runs away, then starts opening with spells. Warrior intercepts the Mage, and finally gets a hamstring off. But Mage still has frost nova! Mage roots warrior and then distances themselves again. Now the Warriors's intercept and hamstring are both on cool down and he has to wait while the Mage casts spells at him to make his next attack.

 

It was a game of checks and balances on abilities. No matter your feelings on WoW - they had a pretty decent balance between classes' abilities and counters. It felt really satisfying to play your class and out-maneuver your opponents.

 

With the state of melee right now, I don't feel that there is any "reliable" way of doing damage. The only possible way to land a combo is to have your chain pull work perfectly, pull the person right next to you and pray you have enough time to get your 3 stun off. Then *maybe* you have time to get your 4 knockdown and your 2 damage. But all of that requires you to not move a single step and pray that nothing misses or the opponent just runs away.

 

If I am in the middle of a combo, why can't my character take a few steps while attacking to follow my target? If I am clicking LMB to do my chain, why can't my character step in the directs I'm facing so someone can't simply hit W and break my entire combo. The way it is right now they don't have to expend any abilities to break my combo chains. I could be blowing long cool downs and all they have to do is move a few steps to avoid it. They don't have to sacrifice any cool downs of their own to counter play. This is the part that just feels so frustrating.

 

Having played competitive PVP MMOs for almost 2 decades now - I am positive that no one will want to play Melee the way they are right now. Sure some people will just for fun, but in a competitive setting there is no advantage to it right now. Ranged have a much larger room for error, whereas melee have none.

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Thanks for replying Arkade - appreciate the tips. I'm sure I need to practice some things, but a couple comments.

 

I certainly never expect to have 100% uptime on my target. That would be ridiculously unbalanced. I really enjoy archer archetypes as well, so I certainly see things from both perspectives. That said, most games are typically balanced to allow you partial up times on your target.

 

Let me take a WoW example for simplicity's sake. I played an MS warrior for like 6 years. Loved the class. I also had a Mage and a hunter that played extensively as well. So let's take a hypothetical Mage vs. warrior matchup. Warrior basically had hamstring to slow, and charge/intercept to gap close. Mages had blink to escape, frost nova to root, and polymorph to CC/make distance. The fight came down to managing cool downs and counter playing your opponent to try and maximize uptime on attack. The warrior could rely on being able to charge/hamstring and have a few seconds of damage on the target before they could distance themselves. Hamstring cool down time was abut twice as long as the "uptime" of the slow effect it provided.

 

Now a good mage would see you coming and polymorph you before you could get the charge off, or while you were mid charge. Thus you couldn't get the hamstring to hit as you would be polymorphed. Mage runs away, then starts opening with spells. Warrior intercepts the Mage, and finally gets a hamstring off. But Mage still has frost nova! Mage roots warrior and then distances themselves again. Now the Warriors's intercept and hamstring are both on cool down and he has to wait while the Mage casts spells at him to make his next attack.

 

It was a game of checks and balances on abilities. No matter your feelings on WoW - they had a pretty decent balance between classes' abilities and counters. It felt really satisfying to play your class and out-maneuver your opponents.

 

With the state of melee right now, I don't feel that there is any "reliable" way of doing damage. The only possible way to land a combo is to have your chain pull work perfectly, pull the person right next to you and pray you have enough time to get your 3 stun off. Then *maybe* you have time to get your 4 knockdown and your 2 damage. But all of that requires you to not move a single step and pray that nothing misses or the opponent just runs away.

 

If I am in the middle of a combo, why can't my character take a few steps while attacking to follow my target? If I am clicking LMB to do my chain, why can't my character step in the directs I'm facing so someone can't simply hit W and break my entire combo. The way it is right now they don't have to expend any abilities to break my combo chains. I could be blowing long cool downs and all they have to do is move a few steps to avoid it. They don't have to sacrifice any cool downs of their own to counter play. This is the part that just feels so frustrating.

 

Having played competitive PVP MMOs for almost 2 decades now - I am positive that no one will want to play Melee the way they are right now. Sure some people will just for fun, but in a competitive setting there is no advantage to it right now. Ranged have a much larger room for error, whereas melee have none.

The game isn't meant to be balanced for 1on1 and I think you are being a tad hyperbolic... people will play melee because it will be viable, there are many reasons it will be viable, for example it's easier to dodge a ranged attack that has a travel time than it is to dodge a melee attack that lands nearly instantly.

 

Also as someone that achieved 2700+ on multiple characters in wow arena and 2900+ on a warrior I can safely say that WoW never had good 1v1 balance, nor did it ever intend to. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Thanks for replying Arkade - appreciate the tips. I'm sure I need to practice some things, but a couple comments.

 

I certainly never expect to have 100% uptime on my target. That would be ridiculously unbalanced. I really enjoy archer archetypes as well, so I certainly see things from both perspectives. That said, most games are typically balanced to allow you partial up times on your target.

 

Let me take a WoW example for simplicity's sake. I played an MS warrior for like 6 years. Loved the class. I also had a Mage and a hunter that played extensively as well. So let's take a hypothetical Mage vs. warrior matchup. Warrior basically had hamstring to slow, and charge/intercept to gap close. Mages had blink to escape, frost nova to root, and polymorph to CC/make distance. The fight came down to managing cool downs and counter playing your opponent to try and maximize uptime on attack. The warrior could rely on being able to charge/hamstring and have a few seconds of damage on the target before they could distance themselves. Hamstring cool down time was abut twice as long as the "uptime" of the slow effect it provided.

 

Now a good mage would see you coming and polymorph you before you could get the charge off, or while you were mid charge. Thus you couldn't get the hamstring to hit as you would be polymorphed. Mage runs away, then starts opening with spells. Warrior intercepts the Mage, and finally gets a hamstring off. But Mage still has frost nova! Mage roots warrior and then distances themselves again. Now the Warriors's intercept and hamstring are both on cool down and he has to wait while the Mage casts spells at him to make his next attack.

 

It was a game of checks and balances on abilities. No matter your feelings on WoW - they had a pretty decent balance between classes' abilities and counters. It felt really satisfying to play your class and out-maneuver your opponents.

 

With the state of melee right now, I don't feel that there is any "reliable" way of doing damage. The only possible way to land a combo is to have your chain pull work perfectly, pull the person right next to you and pray you have enough time to get your 3 stun off. Then *maybe* you have time to get your 4 knockdown and your 2 damage. But all of that requires you to not move a single step and pray that nothing misses or the opponent just runs away.

 

If I am in the middle of a combo, why can't my character take a few steps while attacking to follow my target? If I am clicking LMB to do my chain, why can't my character step in the directs I'm facing so someone can't simply hit W and break my entire combo. The way it is right now they don't have to expend any abilities to break my combo chains. I could be blowing long cool downs and all they have to do is move a few steps to avoid it. They don't have to sacrifice any cool downs of their own to counter play. This is the part that just feels so frustrating.

 

Having played competitive PVP MMOs for almost 2 decades now - I am positive that no one will want to play Melee the way they are right now. Sure some people will just for fun, but in a competitive setting there is no advantage to it right now. Ranged have a much larger room for error, whereas melee have none.

 

We've been wanting to add a more forward motion to attacks and allow for small free movement in-between combo's. This way melee combat would feel less restrictive. 

 

That's not to say we are going to move away from full body animation locks, but certainly give more consistent momentum with each swing allowing. 

 

What you're playing right now is the result of 16 weeks of work, we've identified numerous improvements we want to make in the future and I'm confident that we'll accomplish the perfect balance between melee and ranged movement options!  


Tully Ackland

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc. 

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

[Rules of Conduct]

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Beyond that, I hope you move the chain pull to the Minotaur later, there's no sensible reason for the Knight to be utilizing that method but that's me

 

As time goes on and more Archetype's come online we'll be looking back on previous abilities and re-working, moving them around and in general, doing mechanical improvements across the board. 


Tully Ackland

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc. 

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

[Rules of Conduct]

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Rooting combo entirely in individual archetype skillcharts might not be the best thing to do.

The sequence of actions that need to be performed to yield the advantage might require too much structure for a game that is otherwise so open & "free"?

Such structured combo's could end up disrupting combat dynamics.Or some of the combo moves simply never get used.

It just means that the combo's are "not in tune" with the actual dynamics of combat.

And if ,for example,chainpull would have a possible combo attached to it.the follow up set of combo actions is useless;if chainpull isn't working you can never execute the combo properly.

Maintaining the balance of freedom and structure is a challenge.

 

Linking combos solely to skillbar is also detrimental to teamplay.

Because the rewards are gained by individual performance.(sets of follow up actions on your own bar)

Maybe for some archetypes,like the ranger,individual combos would be ok to reap minor benefits from traps that are triggered.

The ranger is more like a wanderer/scout ..So that might allow for a few more individual combo opportunities..

Survival might be one of their benefits when they put combo's to good use.

 

But you want to reward when players coordinate an attack together,yes?

That when coordinating team &  timing is perfect, they get a reward?

Like the the ranger could oil the place up,the confessor could put it on fire;resulting in the opportunity for the ranger to use fire arrows.

Securing a strategic advantage by skillful manoeuvre.It is no longer just about individual performance,like when combo is linked to individual skillbars solely.

This way ,combo reward coordinated group assaults where every action is timed and performed well.

 

For emergent reasons,it would also be best to include some environmental combo enablers.

Like on mud terrain,the rear kick of the centaur turns into and optional "mudsplash" combo.

This way,players also look at environment itself in an attempt to yield an advantage that comes with a combo.

Edited by Tipsy

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As time goes on and more Archetype's come online we'll be looking back on previous abilities and re-working, moving them around and in general, doing mechanical improvements across the board.

How many abilities per archetype (excluding specializations and disciplines) are you aiming to have? Will archetypes simply be stuck with the 10 numpad abilities + 2 mouse / + 1 c abilities? Will it be more like other limited action set games (i.e. wildstar) where you have a bigger pool and will swamp abilities in and out?

Edited by helix

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How many abilities per archetype (excluding specializations and disciplines) are you aiming to have? Will archetypes simply be stuck with the 10 numpad abilities + 2 mouse / + 1 c abilities? Will it be more like other limited action set games (i.e. wildstar) where you have a bigger pool and will swamp abilities in and out?

I think they reviewed this earlier, saying that some abilities would come from promotions and disciplines, both adding more actions and replacing others, perhaps with customization.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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We've been wanting to add a more forward motion to attacks and allow for small free movement in-between combo's. This way melee combat would feel less restrictive. 

 

That's not to say we are going to move away from full body animation locks, but certainly give more consistent momentum with each swing allowing. 

 

What you're playing right now is the result of 16 weeks of work, we've identified numerous improvements we want to make in the future and I'm confident that we'll accomplish the perfect balance between melee and ranged movement options!

 

Thank you so much for replying Tully! This just totally made my day. I completely understand that it is very early in development, and I appreciate being able to test things at this point. I don't mean to sound harsh - I was mostly just trying to get a point across to all the people going "melee is fine the way it is." I'm not saying it is terrible, but it is definitely not "fine" either.

 

Hearing you say you're aware of the issues and you are working on them is all I could hope for. Acknowledging that there are areas for improvement and you guys are looking into ways to fix it is exactly what I was hoping for!! Keep up the good work and best of luck to you!

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