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mythx

ACE Devs - 1 year character progression.

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I admit I enjoy the idea to remove 1 year character progression completely from the game, because of 13 different Archetypes with different skill systems that need to be balanced.

It`s a pointless mmo feature to kill npc/players to gain skills, because in a year all are at similar levels due to passive skill training anyway - it`s no carrot for me - just a meaningless task/mmo feature. 

 

- The major weakness with skills: It`s seldom a fair fight mainly based on different weapon skill levels in (%) which will create a gap among players due to (weapon meta; attack speed, range, reach, and dps.)

And especially when trade and resource gathering is a major aspect of Crowfall; to build a strategic position on the map a castle/keep to protect your realm. So players don`t fight at equal footing at all, because of skill differences and that includes that some might have trained wrong skills for your support character for example.

 

- In fact Ace can save a lot of development time with a limited team that they could use elsewhere like in Campaigns (POI`s) - and a good trade system suggestion: http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/3335-trade-in-campaigns/ for instance.

 

 

Evaluation.

 

- Most mmo`s suck bawls related to PvP balance, because of either skill differences in levels like ESO, or differences in weapon/power skills in Ultima Online - the balance factor could be powers instead which are much better balance when it doesn`t include the skill differences. It`s a major issue in every mmo game to this date, pls. just remove it all and make it easier for yourself, ACE.

 

The fun factor of Shadowbane was actually to create new interesting characters, because there were so many possibilitiess in character creation. And it took usually 2 days to macro level up to max level (75) even while you was sleeping/afk, because other guild members had a macro farm some mobs of tedious level progression. My point is the whole level/skill mill is pointless and extremely boring.

 

Lastly, I`m aware this is too late to alter course of the mmo feature about skill differences, but let`s discuss it nonetheless, and did the mmo genre learn anything new since Ultima Online and Everquest in the last two decades?

Edited by mythx

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Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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I've wondered about skill progression too to be honest. Mostly because, like Mythx said on Shadowbane you could reroll a character in about 2 days. My impression on Crowfall is that characters and their development is meant to be a far more long term thing.

 

Early on, Todd spoke about failure in character development being OK - it's possible to create a gimp character. However, where that model works is where its easy to reroll or respec that character otherwise only misery and frustration will follow.

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I may be misunderstanding the OP but, where did the 1 year thing come from?

 

As far as I've seen the length of time they're talking about is 3~ months which is similar in time to an example of campaign length.

 

If you make a gimp character in 1 campaign, you can reroll or create a separate character and be maxed by the next one.

 

Keep in mind that VIP's also have up to 3 training slots and also campaign rulesets will favor specific archetypes and builds.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with screwing up a character, it's all part of the learning experience. You will make mistakes or find that you don't enjoy something. You may even find some rare item (thrall or rune etc) that you want to build a character around. I'd say it's a core feature of the game and I hope that it stays that way.

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It seems to me that one core idea for productively constructing most of these systems is a logarithmic growth model - essentially built so that the marginal improvements to your character decrease over time, but never go completely to zero.

 

1) Passive skill growth can function like this and mitigates problems with new entrants and new characters.

2) Active skill growth can function like this and be the same, but still give incentives and rewards to those who built good characters and stick with them long term

3) Items can function like this.

4) Crafting can function like this.

 

My 2c.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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I admit I enjoy the idea to remove 1 year character progression completely from the game,

 

Devs have never said anything about expected length of time to softcap or hardcap a character. A 1-year guess is completely fanon.

 

It`s a pointless mmo feature to kill npc/players to gain skills, because in a year all are at similar levels due to passive skill training anyway - it`s no carrot for me - just a meaningless task/mmo feature. 

 

Your pointless MMO feature doesn't exist in Crowfall anyway. Passive training can be used to raise skills from 0 to cap, and is the only option for raising skills from minimum competence to cap. Active skill training is not a grind, it's just a way for you to raise up a very weak skill to something barely useful a little faster than passive training alone would allow.

 

- The major weakness with skills: It`s seldom a fair fight mainly based on different weapon skill levels in (%) which will create a gap among players due to (weapon meta; attack speed, range, reach, and dps.)

 

"A fair fight" is not any part of the design goals of the Crowfall game system. Character balance has been explicitly rejected by the devs as being either feasible or desirable. Your job is to use your character in ways that are as unfair as possible to your enemies.

 

Summing up, I have no idea what you're trying to say or achieve with this thread, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have anything to do with the game ACE is developing.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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I think JTC summed it up pretty well when he was talking about people that constantly have problems with imbalances....

 

MMORPGs aren't supposed to be balanced, they aren't supposed to be fair fights with equal numbers equal progression on flat terrain with the same compositions for everyone....

 

They are supposed to be players adapting to all sorts of different situations.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I didn`t add your player CS:GO skills differences, VN.

 

@Jihan it`s pointless when all players are maxed out in end anyway related to the different archetypes.

I'm not quite sure why you are bringing CSGO into this... CSGO doesn't really have character progression....


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I'm not quite sure why you are bringing CSGO into this... CSGO doesn't really have character progression....

 

Well, that`s my point of the whole balance view thread related to character progression with skill differences.

And it`s a very good reason why CSGO don`t use such a system in their game.

Edited by mythx

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Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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@Jihan it`s pointless when all players are maxed out in end anyway related to the different archetypes.

 

Can you explain what the "it" is that's pointless?


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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I talked about it a little in #slack earlier this evening - I need to do some other things at the moment.

I can elaborate on the topic a bit later.

 

 

Updated version 2.0 character progression: 

 

  • My whole idea with this topic and discussion is to avoid a huge skill gap in (%) between an old character compare to a new one in Crowfall so it`s less noticeable in PvP.
  • Another point you will notice in-game later that player skill gap between some guilds based on guild communication and experience from other games like in SB or DF will only increase that gap. It was actually a huge difference with maxed out characters in Shadowbane and in Darkfall..
  • You see already in (pre-alpha) that some players are usually above average skillset level compare to other guilds this early. That is only player skills without any skill difference in % and the progression calculated the difference from a 3 months old Knight compare to a 2 days old Knight related to skill differences in combat.

- My thoughts with this topic is that CF Devs. try to minimize the skill differences much as possible so the game is fun to play for also new players who arrived perhaps 2 weeks after launch. I don`t post this to help myself in any way, or to get an advantage in-game with theory crafting, but I try to explain my reasoning behind this thread and I hope CF will be one of the best mmo PvP games to this date for sure.

Edited by mythx

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Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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My whole idea with this topic and discussion is to avoid a huge skill gap in (%) between an old character compare to a new one in Crowfall so it`s less noticeable in PvP.

 

The devs have already told us that they want a shallow power curve. Why do you feel safe assuming that whatever it is that they're building isn't shallow enough?

 

Yes, a day 1 character will have 1 skill point in his weapon skill versus a capped character who has 150+ in his weapon skill. But since nobody outside of ACE has any idea what impact skill levels have on actual damage output, we have no grounds for assuming or even speculating that the damage differential will be larger than is good for the game.

 

Based on what we know so far... and what we don't know... it could just as easily turn out that 0 skill is 500 dps and 200 skill is 502 dps. Would that be an unacceptably steep power curve in your eyes?


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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I do recall an interview, or a video, or something that mentioned that 1 year milestone.

 

I think the issue here, however, is not how long it takes to max a character. I think the real issue is that its possible in so little of a time span. One year is attainable and allows people to make mistakes because ultimately and eventually any mistakes made will be moderated and eliminated with the passage of time.

 

The real crux of my complaint of the skill system is that we know so very little about it. In the interview I did with Gordon the system was a point system between 0 and 250 (the high end being made possible depending on archetype, promotion, and discipline choices). That is simply put, too basic of a system. Not to get into the nitty-gritty of why this system works from EVE (and why its an excellent foundation for a skill system), the point is that in EVE the complexity and depth of the skill trees force players to make difficult choices.

 

I don't see difficult choices being a part of the proposed system in Crowfall. The only choice is the order in which skills are trained. Thats not depth. 

 

We would need a hierarchical approach to skills and skill progression trees; further we need pre-requisite skills. 

 

In EVE skills don't necessarily translate to a huge tactical advantage. What they do, however, is give players a greater variety of approaches to how they play at any given moment. If right now I wanted to log into EVE and mine asteroids, my guy could. I spent a great deal of time training him to be an awesome miner. Because I haven't played for 40 years (the theoretical "cap" in time it would take to train all skills in EVE), my mining might be awesome. The moment I hop into PvP though, I'm incapable of being awesome at every aspect of that playstyle. I made choices and I have to live with them.

 

The translation of skill into combat prowess is an excellent question to pose to the devs, but they can't tell us how skills impact combat until combat is done. They aren't designing the game that way. Its frustrating because this is one of the more exciting aspects of Crowfall that drew me to it. I love the idea of real time training and the simultaneous decision to allow players to make "mistakes". At best this is an illusion.

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I may be misunderstanding the OP but, where did the 1 year thing come from?

 

As far as I've seen the length of time they're talking about is 3~ months which is similar in time to an example of campaign length.

 

If you make a gimp character in 1 campaign, you can reroll or create a separate character and be maxed by the next one.

 

Keep in mind that VIP's also have up to 3 training slots and also campaign rulesets will favor specific archetypes and builds.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with screwing up a character, it's all part of the learning experience. You will make mistakes or find that you don't enjoy something. You may even find some rare item (thrall or rune etc) that you want to build a character around. I'd say it's a core feature of the game and I hope that it stays that way.

 

Your character is persistant between campaigns.


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As far as I've seen the length of time they're talking about is 3~ months which is similar in time to an example of campaign length.

 

In 6 months you can "cap" (1-100) eleven skills, according to the informations we have now.

 

Which means that 1 year is a good estimation... but considering that skills cap can be increased (to ~250?) and there may be more than 22 skills, it's probably gonna take longer than 1 year (they're taking hints on this from EVE for sure). So yes, in this scenario I agree with myth and I would prefer the speed to be at least 2x - 3x faster.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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In 6 months you can "cap" (1-100) eleven skills, according to the informations we have now.

 

Which means that 1 year is a good estimation... but considering that skills cap can be increased (to ~250?) and there may be more than 22 skills, it's probably gonna take longer than 1 year (they're taking hints on this from EVE for sure). So yes, in this scenario I agree with myth and I would prefer the speed to be at least 2x - 3x faster.

Skills train simultaneously, they're just training at different rates. Also, you can only train the skills that your archetype supports and up to 3 disciplines at a time. Maybe it would take that long to rotate through ALL skills that are available to you but, most of those skills won't be usable at the same time as far as I understand it.

 

If you're a VIP you get 3 passive character training slots and with the addition of experience bonus items the rate of training will be faster than the base.

 

I feel like a long duration is healthier for the lifespan of the game and it gives people who concentrate on a specific character an advantage over people who are chronic re-rollers. Think of it in terms of a game of D&D...you're sitting down to play with a group of your friends but, one of your friends wants to re-roll his stats 40 times before he's happy enough to play through the campaign.

 

You inform yourself as much as possible and you make decisions about what you want to be and you're either stuck with those decisions or you take a penalty for restarting. It makes your time investment more important and it helps you form an attachment to your character. The shorter duration of training, the more the game becomes casual.

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The real crux of my complaint of the skill system is that we know so very little about it.

 

So there's no point fussing until we know more.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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The devs have already told us that they want a shallow power curve. Why do you feel safe assuming that whatever it is that they're building isn't shallow enough?

 

Yes, a day 1 character will have 1 skill point in his weapon skill versus a capped character who has 150+ in his weapon skill. But since nobody outside of ACE has any idea what impact skill levels have on actual damage output, we have no grounds for assuming or even speculating that the damage differential will be larger than is good for the game.

 

Based on what we know so far... and what we don't know... it could just as easily turn out that 0 skill is 500 dps and 200 skill is 502 dps. Would that be an unacceptably steep power curve in your eyes?

 

In most older mmo`s it`s not shallow at all to be honest, and it`s almost the exact opposite. So I felt it was interesting to debate the topic though, and hopefully ACE Devs are aware of the issue in 2015. 

Edited by mythx

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Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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Skills train simultaneously, they're just training at different rates.

 

Yes, primary goes from 1 to 100 in a month, secondary in two months and tertiary in 3 months. That's why I said 11 skills in 6 months.

 

If you're a VIP you get 3 passive character training slots and with the addition of experience bonus items the rate of training will be faster than the base.

 

They said no "experience bonus items" for those who pay. The best you'll get will be relics, with 1-2% bonus.. nothing much.

And having 3 chars training (on 3 different campaigns nonetheless) instead of one, doesn't really solve the issue.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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The shorter duration of training, the more the game becomes casual.

You have to differ between aproachable and casual. Most people think they are the hardcore poorly made socks and filthy casuals hurt games. After all the most people are so called "casuals" but not because they are bad but more because easy game are approachable. If we can still keep the vision of Crowfall to the core but make it approchable the game will sustain and not because it is so HARDCORE. So many games became MMO molded (BDO) to be more markable aka approchable to a larger audience which ruined the game. ACE doesnt need to sell out to make the game because they have us to finanze it.

 

If you want to look up on approchable vs. easy / casual, here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWFzFsHc75U


 

I AM ME!
I love you all.

 

 

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