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Hunger Dome 1.0 data analysis postmortem - Official discussion thread

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I must have been an outlier since I hardly ever used the left click attacks on the Confessor and Knight. I basically never needed to use them on the Knight and with the Confessor I usually only used them for long ranged attacks against moving targets.

 

Knight's Left Click while sprinting is a "hidden combo" that inflicts a snare, so it is in fact very useful.

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I'm a little disappointed that there was no mention of different controller schemes and input methods. Alternating effects on several keyboard skills rather chording with the mouse and fewer keys would fit action gameplay much better, I imagine at least.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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People didn´t finish the combos for one of three reasons

1. They knew they´d miss (unlikely)

2. They got stunned or something similar

3. The animation and doing the combos takes way way way to long so by the time you wanted to do the last thing in the combo the other player is out of range has stunned you or you have to use another ability to save your self or a teammate.

 

And all those can relate to nr 3 really, they know they´ll miss the last component because its to slow, they get stunned during the 4 seconds to takes to finish the combo.

 

Anyway this is first test we´ll see some great new things later down the line :D

 

Arro


Arrogance diminishes wisdom

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I now ask all these questions:

  • Do people not understand the alternate E for a combo?
    • If so, is the UI unclear?
    • Are the QWERTY players skewing the data?
  • Is the E button too awkward to press?
    • Would a remapping option solve this?

 

The UI is Clear but most tradition titles "shadowbane" would just allow us to choose what spells to use rather then wait for a "trigger"

 

Honestly the combo system takes away the "uniqueness" of a players ability. I personally find the usage of combos boring since everyone will just spam the same spell waiting for the combo trigger which in return makes the combat pretty generic & flat.

 

I've always been a fan of key mapping so allowing the players to choose what key suits them best would solve this issue.

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I was expecting Legionnaire to be least played, typical for a support class because more people like the DEEPS :P. I enjoy playing support though, and had a blast with it in the Hungerdome! The overall archetype concept of a centaur "melee jouster" with knockbacks, shouts, and auras to help the team was definitely working for my fav playstyle of action support.

 

The rage mechanic on Legionnaire might be a factor in power usage numbers compared to knight as mana user. 

 

It was great seeing the progress on server performance over the course of the 1.0 testing, looking forward to testing the improvements in 1.1.

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The pattern of use of skill isn't that hard to understand, it is simple because the skill animations lock. Think about to build up a combo, you need to press 2-3 keys to set it up while all 2-3 skills come with their own animation lock.

let's do some simple maths,

3 skills animations time + 3 delays 

animation lock is about 0.2s-0.3s give or take (assuming the skill doesn't require any casting time, but only animation lock)

delays are come from ping etc. Usually 100ms -150ms.

In my case, 150ms.

150ms = 0.15s

3(0.3+0.15) =1.35s

 

This 1.35s is the best result i can reach if I have 0s human reaction time (usually 0.2s) and all spells have 0 casting time. (the 0.2s doesn't apply if you clicking the same button repeatedly, since delay doesn't mean click interval here).

 

So most of the time, a combo cost you 1.5s (at least) to perform. while performing this, you can't really swing your camera freely to adjust target and the animation lock just stun you there for at least 0.9s (if no latency and no reaction time.)

 

such combo can be easily dodged by moving 2-5 steps away.

 

on the other hand, the fireball allows you to keep positioning and it comes with longest hit range plus decent damage.

 

The reward against time investment&risk is better than pursue some of those combos, especially when the final hit isn't too powerful and easy to hit.

 

 

 

 

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"As a point of comparison, when the Hunger Dome released we saw an average msg time in the 500ms ranges and spikes into the 2000ms ranges (sometimes upwards of 18,000ms!) By the end of the Hunger Dome we had the average msg down into the 50 - 150ms range and didn’t see the huge spiking happening anymore.

 

[...] fixing these issues all yielded great performance gains. Even better, we were able to fix them at this stage of the project. Since MMOs don’t normally put themselves out in front of customers so early, issues similar to these can lay sleeping for multiple years, and development teams just learn to live with a less than performant game.

 

Looking back, I am really glad we went with the server controller approach to the characters. Since the server controller is so sensitive to latency, it forced us to fix all of the larger networking issues early on. Otherwise, the characters just flat-out couldn’t move. Now that we are switching to a client-based controller, it means the server pill will already be that much tighter and responsive to any network latency."

 

Good job on achieving all that. The responsiveness of the controls and the general playability improved by a lot during this test.

 

Can't wait to see how far you guys can push the optimization.  :)

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Still believe weaving combos entirely in power usage is a mistake.

Cause what do you want to promote?That players who can perform the sequence of their archetype's powers by themselves get a boon?

Part about the problem is that its all about themselves then,about the individual performance

Combo opportunities shouldn't be solely linked to a powerbar..At least not if you want players to perform sequences together

Environmental combo enablers like ;centaur in swamp-rear kick ->mud stomping combo

If you want players to look further than a powerbar,the current state of it won't do.

 

Another issue is maintaining balance between freedom and structure.

Maybe some combos simply don't match combat dynamics at this moment.

 

I think the UI is pretty nice though

But in its current state,is it easy for players to keep track of the combos that are possible in a given moment?

Is the interface intuitive enough;simple and enjoyable to use,easily understood..

If not players don't know they can perform a combo.

So perhaps there has to be a visual indication (dots,light effects,..) on each skill that show how far you could perform a combo.

Edited by Tipsy

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From the power usage graph it would appear that the Knight powers shield lunge and onslaught need scaled back a bit and basic 2 and 3 need some love. At least it seems to be the odd one out all other arc's are using their 3 basic attacks consistently top 3. What do you think?

It's hard to land all 3 without someone running away (Plus the mana return is kind bad).  No speed like the legionnaire, or range like the confessor.   Would be nice if basic combos had a longer time allotted to finish.    Shield Lunge (I think they changed the name, but the icon is right) is used for mobility, often when there is no one there, kind of like the confessor's right click.  Onslaught is the only ability other than basic and block without a cool down, and the video tells you to spam it, so I think it makes sense that onslaught is pretty high on usage compared to abilities with cool downs.

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I played mostly Legionnaire during the test and for me the a and b line of attack for "No Quarter" was mostly the difference between slashing and piercing damage.  In the few tests I played I wasn't able to get skilled enough to identify what leather, plat or scale looked like on the other two classes to even guess at which damage type I should use.  I'm sure as the skill levels improve people will start to account for damage type.

 

Regarding the use of 'E' for the alt line or if it should be another key I would prefer you spend the time to allow us to rebind all the keys.  So I can pick what works best for me.

 

Finally combo skills.  While I would have preferred more time between attacks to chain combo skills, I'm not sure that's the solution.   I wanted more time between attacks because I wasn't able to take more than two steps before losing the chain and found myself chasing people most of the time.

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heck yeah (4 4 E, 4 E E) was easy to press from this side I am used to combo of number the letters.

It will take those who never played action combat a while to learn.

 

left click /right click © -> 4EE / 44E

It would be harder if it was 4DED4  ;) be grateful for this simple combos but again I'd love to see where we can change keybinding to anything comfortable to other users.

 

Edit: 

On note that msg need to be reduced on all servers that would be an amazing battle flow.

Edited by Mox

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I agree with arro said above.

 

As a confessor trying to pull off the combos you are standing still and the animation to cast the combos takes so long. The knights come in and knockdown the combo is death or they chain pull the combo is dead. If you see the knight coming (a second team hasn't snuck up behind you) you move you miss the window to cast.

 

Every once in a while I was was also lacking the mana to pull off the third move. If you see the team incoming you use your longer range abilities meteor purge etc, by the time you cast your combo for your tornados/hellfire You are out of mana.

 

As for retaliate often times the option took a few seconds to pop up on the screen. At that point it was much easier for me to press C (since it interrupted the stun or knockdown) and then right click to escape if I had the stamina.

 

~Calamity

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From the power usage graph it would appear that the Knight powers shield lunge and onslaught need scaled back a bit and basic 2 and 3 need some love. At least it seems to be the odd one out all other arc's are using their 3 basic attacks consistently top 3. What do you think?

 

Using Shift-LeftClick lets you bypass straight to the third ability in the basic chain (the snare) which is also the most useful... wouldn't that throw off analysis of this data set?

 

 

It's hard to land all 3 without someone running away (Plus the mana return is kind bad).  No speed like the legionnaire, or range like the confessor.   Would be nice if basic combos had a longer time allotted to finish.    Shield Lunge (I think they changed the name, but the icon is right) is used for mobility, often when there is no one there, kind of like the confessor's right click.  Onslaught is the only ability other than basic and block without a cool down, and the video tells you to spam it, so I think it makes sense that onslaught is pretty high on usage compared to abilities with cool downs.

 

 

I found the Knight's abilities to be the most well rounded of the three Archetypes, and I felt all of my options were applicable to just about every encounter.  So I am not surprised to see the Knight with the widest distribution of ability usage.  (It's also the reason why I played Knight almost exclusively and found the other two less enjoyable).

 

My take away is that Knight is looking very good while Confessor and Legio abilities need to be refined to see better diversity of ability usage.

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Using Shift-LeftClick lets you bypass straight to the third ability in the basic chain (the snare) which is also the most useful... wouldn't that throw off analysis of this data set?

 

 

 

 

 

I found the Knight's abilities to be the most well rounded of the three Archetypes, and I felt all of my options were applicable to just about every encounter.  So I am not surprised to see the Knight with the widest distribution of ability usage.  (It's also the reason why I played Knight almost exclusively and found the other two less enjoyable).

 

My take away is that Knight is looking very good while Confessor and Legio abilities need to be refined to see better diversity of ability usage.

I was not aware you could skip to the third basic with shift. I did prefer the knight over the other two, definitely found it the most fun.

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