Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...

Recommended Posts

That scout is an idiot. Letting the other faction/alliance gain any sort of resource advantage means his own chances of winning and thus getting full export are reduced. Gaining loot at your own team's expense does you no good if you can't get it out of the campaign.

 

There are going to be resources you use and resources you take back to the EK with you.  There will be some places it will be easier to take your loss than to get everyone back and working again.  There will be some scouts who arent as scrupulous as yourself.  Much less pick up groups and the like.  This tactic worked in SB.

 

How many accounts will you have on one server?  How many enemies do you have?  How many more do you want?

 

Sometimes paying the squeeze is easier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

God jesus i hope that's not the last word on it.

 

That's exactly how stealth worked in both Shadowbane and Swtor 2 major games developed by Jtodd and Gordon... Gonna go out on a limb and say unless we find something game breaking in the ranger patch of hungerdome its the final say.


"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if it involves actual tracking of people via footprints and such.

Thats a fantastic idea, give scout a skill so he is able to actually see the tracks and evaluate how recent they are and what archetype/ spec class left them, and what direction they went, distance towards them, what is their equipment etc. The higher your skill the more you should be able to tell. Other classes could gain basic tracking functionality via a discipline.

 

And you could hide your tracks by using craftable devices and/or potions.

 

And certain skills and disciplines could make you go without leaving tracks.

 

cow-shoes.jpg

 

"This is one of a pair of cow shoes worn by moonshiners during Prohibition to hide their tracks from prohibition agents."

 

cow-shoe.jpeg

 

"If

ever man had an easy task, this of ours ought to
be. Wooden-legged men are not so common, but
the other man must, I should think, be absolutely
unique.”
“That other man again!”
“I have no wish to make a mystery of him,—to
you, anyway. But you must have formed your own
opinion. Now, do consider the data. Diminutive
footmarks, toes never fettered by boots, naked feet,
stone-headed wooden mace, great agility, small poi-
soned darts. What do you make of all this?”
“A savage!” I exclaimed. “Perhaps one of those
Indians who were the associates of Jonathan Small.”
“Hardly that,” said he. “When first I saw signs
of strange weapons I was inclined to think so; but
the remarkable character of the footmarks caused
me to reconsider my views. Some of the inhabitants
of the Indian Peninsula are small men, but none
could have left such marks as that. The Hindoo
proper has long and thin feet. The sandal-wearing
Mohammedan has the great toe well separated
from the others, because the thong is commonly
passed between. These little darts, too, could only
be shot in one way. They are from a blow-pipe.
Now, then, where are we to find our savage?”
“South American,” I hazarded."
Edited by rajah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Been hoping for environmentally based stealth for a long time. The news that it will be perma-stealth is disheartening (if not outright depressing, with SOOOOOOOO many ither games doing it and failing to bring any kind of dynamic or innovation to the system) but maybe we'll all be pleasantly surprised

 

Posted this a while back for how environmental stealth could work

 

Well, if you look at Black Desert videos, they actually make some effective use of camouflage in that game, with no stealth classes at all. All the characters had access to a crouch and high crawl movement mechanic and the grass completely covered them. The lack of nameplates also made camouflage viable, utilizing objects and foliage for camouflage and sneaking up on people. The issue with this that I see is that it would require the devs to add a lot more stuff that will most likely max out the graphics of the game, requiring players to use better equipment, which may hurt the game's accessibility.

 

While we're wishing for things, I'd like to see stealth be more based on the environment, just like real stealth and hiding. Here's the stealth mechanic I'd like to see in games:

 

Stealth mechanics have a certain score that determined their level of transparency. For the sake of the example, we'll number it 1-5, with 1 being slightly translucent in the open, and 5 being total invisibility. Most classes would have a stealth score of 1 so they are somewhat stealthed, and could level their score to 3 depending on stat distribution, so there is always a chance to see them or recover from an attack. Movement would also cause stealthed characters to reduce their "stealth score" to a minimum of 1, thus movement and positioning becomes a factor as well.

 

Environmental factors in the game world will have a stealth score bonus, which is added to the players stealth score to the maximum of 5. These objects would vary their stealth score depending on what they were. For example, a bush may have a score of 1 while a tree has a score of 3. The score would also determine how far the stealthed player could travel from an object before losing their bonus (the bonus would decrease gradually the further players moved from the object), thus stealth would largely revolve around these environmental factors.

 

All characters would have a "perception cone" which would decrease a stealthed characters score (so the more eyes on a location would eventually break stealth). When stealthed players stood in a "preception cone". This would be done in halves to give stealthed players a chance to remain hidden, and again, players can distribute their stats to their "perception" to a max of 1.5 (0.5-1.5 to at least give stealthed players some modicum of hiding from solo players). Thus, players with maxed "perception" can expose lower leveled stealth characters.

 

Because this stat deals with objects, this causes players to become wary of their environments and what their environment could hide, somewhat similar to real life hide and seek. This also allows players to somewhat predict areas where stealth becomes more hazardous, while also limiting the inherent strength of stealth in terms of their freedom of movement. "Clearing" or "Reconning" environmental obstacles would become a core system for the players to prevent ambush or to set up an ambush. Stealthed players could hide an ambush under a tree so long as there was room for all of them, or players could group up and recon the tree to prevent an ambush. This could also work to strategy, such as whether to send a lone player to potentially their death to recon a location, or to divide your troops to send a "recon squad" to clear out potential ambush sites, or decide that a recon isn't worth the time or effort and risk a potential surprise attack. This can also create a niche role for players to include characters with high perception to recon environmental factors for guilds and parties while the rest of the party focuses on their combat abilities.

 

Anyways, that's just my 2 cents. I know that it's a complicated system that probably won't be included at this stage of the game, but thought I'd put it out there. I just really would like to limit the inherent imbalance that is associated with stealth in games, and any break from the traditional stealth mechanic is a welcome change. (please don't deck me over the numbers, I haven't exactly thought out the entire process, just forming a framework of an idea)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's exactly how stealth worked in both Shadowbane and Swtor 2 major games developed by Jtodd and Gordon... Gonna go out on a limb and say unless we find something game breaking in the ranger patch of hungerdome its the final say.

 

Swtor is a trash WoW clone and shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as good mmos, nor should it be used as a guide for this game... 

 

The true irony is that the simplest form of stealth is the best: Did you notice me? No? Then I'm hidden. 

 

This requires no extra coding. No extra mechanics. No need for counter mechanics to balance. It all comes down to individual ability to detect changes in movement, coloration, light, etc -- true stealth against true perception. 

 

If they wanted to emphasize the ranger or assassin as being "more stealthy" then instead of shoehorning tired old systems into a groundbreaking mmo, they could further improve stealth classes ability to naturally hide, move quickly, and detect others first:

 

-increased speed moved while crouching.

-ability to change color of armor on a whim (not transparent!)

-silent running / jumping

-silent attacks

-temporarily hide nameplate when cursored-over 

-ability to zoom-aim 

-"night vision" or "thermal" vision

-increased sensitivity to hearing specifically footsteps / augmented sound for hearing footsteps that make the player extremely sensitive to noticing player movement (not to be confused with jacking up your volume and making everything blaring)

 

If Crowfall made rangers and assassins have these kind of traits -- where you are TRULY being stealthy, and not just pressing your "invisible" toggle, then i would be genuinely excited to play a stealth class. 

 

As it is, I'm just planning on playing the stealth class because it will inevitably be broken and OP because of the aforementioned "invisibility toggle"

Edited by vucar

aka honeybear

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont know where that notion of stealthers being terribly broken is coming from, in about every game I played, they were a almost a non factor in mid to large scale pvp, due to low health, unsustainable damage output and presence oh healers.

Edited by rajah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont know where that notion of stealthers being terribly broken is coming from, in about every game I played, they were a almost a non factor in mid to large scale pvp, due to low health, unsustainable damage output and presence oh healers.

 

I hope that's the case in this game but my gut feeling is they'll start out broken and OP, in part due to their attempt to combine the aforementioned toggle stealth mechanic with a game that is allegedly going to be fast paced, skill based and aimed. Meshing two worlds of pvp will have unintended consequences we have yet to fully see.

Edited by vucar

aka honeybear

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Swtor is a trash WoW clone and shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as good mmos, nor should it be used as a guide for this game...

 

The true irony is that the simplest form of stealth is the best: Did you notice me? No? Then I'm hidden.

 

This requires no extra coding. No extra mechanics. No need for counter mechanics to balance. It all comes down to individual ability to detect changes in movement, coloration, light, etc -- true stealth against true perception.

 

If they wanted to emphasize the ranger or assassin as being "more stealthy" then instead of shoehorning tired old systems into a groundbreaking mmo, they could further improve stealth classes ability to naturally hide, move quickly, and detect others first:

 

-increased speed moved while crouching.

-ability to change color of armor on a whim (not transparent!)

-silent running / jumping

-silent attacks

-temporarily hide nameplate when cursored-over

-ability to zoom-aim

-"night vision" or "thermal" vision

-increased sensitivity to hearing specifically footsteps / augmented sound for hearing footsteps that make the player extremely sensitive to noticing player movement (not to be confused with jacking up your volume and making everything blaring)

 

If Crowfall made rangers and assassins have these kind of traits -- where you are TRULY being stealthy, and not just pressing your "invisible" toggle, then i would be genuinely excited to play a stealth class.

 

As it is, I'm just planning on playing the stealth class because it will inevitably be broken and OP because of the aforementioned "invisibility toggle"

Sigh... So let's begin...

 

1: Swtor is a WoW trash clone. Your opinion and like unpleasant people everyone has one. But as you didn't mention Shadowbane the stealth play/counterplay between scouts vs insert stealth DPS class, was the best of any mmo and probably even surpassed UO.

 

2: The "blend in with terrain" stealth has been done in games like Arma and DayZ and it works fine for run and gun games not so much for hopefully what revolves around small, mid, and large scale fights, in that the game isn't balanced around 1v1 matchups.

 

3: I enjoy how you will "tell" Jtodd and Gordon "if you really wanted to be dynamic with this you would do X" could you please cite your game development experience and the business model in which your stealthing model worked in an MMO environment? If you can't I'll borrow a quote from Jtodd and say "Trust them"

 

The game is constantly changing and is nowhere near completion but as it stands with how the system worked as of Hungerdome 1.0 I don't see anyway in which that system is feasible.

Edited by wargasmo

"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sigh... So let's begin...

1: Swtor is a WoW trash clone. Your opinion and like unpleasant people everyone has one. But as you didn't mention Shadowbane the stealth play/counterplay between scouts vs insert stealth DPS class, was the best of any mmo and probably even surpassed UO.

2: The "blend in with terrain" stealth has been done in games like Arma and DayZ and it works fine for run and gun games not so much for hopefully what revolves around small, mid, and large scale fights, in that the game isn't balanced around 1v1 matchups.

3: I enjoy how you will "tell" Jtodd and Gordon "if you really wanted to be dynamic with this you would do X" could you please cite your game development experience and the business model in which your stealthing model worked in an MMO environment? If you can't I'll borrow a quote from Jtodd and say "Trust them"

The game is constantly changing and is nowhere near completion but as it stands with how the system worked as of Hungerdome 1.0 I don't see anyway in which that system is feasible.

Actually, to look at your #2, if you look at Black Desert, all classes have a crouch and crawl stance, which allows them to interact to hide behind objects or in tall grass (affected by the profile, which is contingent upon their armor choices and natural character/polygon shape). You can actually watch players pull this off in PvP to great effect, allowing them to actually use stealth using the environment to hide and camouflage their position.

 

Maybe crowfall can do something similar in that stealth characters can only enter "invisibility mode" when they are crouched next to certain objects, or are crawling in tall grass. That way their stealth is based on environment instead of "the invisibilty toggle"

Edited by RKNM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, to look at your #2, if you look at Black Desert, all classes have a crouch and crawl stance, which allows them to interact to hide behind objects or in tall grass (affected by the profile, which is contingent upon their armor choices and natural character/polygon shape). You can actually watch players pull this off in PvP to great effect, allowing them to actually use stealth using the environment to hide and camouflage their position.

 

Maybe crowfall can do something similar in that stealth characters can only enter "invisibility mode" when they are crouched next to certain objects, or are crawling in tall grass. That way their stealth is based on environment instead of "the invisibilty toggle"

This would work in an urban setting, but I think in a world that may very well have quite a few open areas, stealthers would be incredibly weak.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The true irony is that the simplest form of stealth is the best: Did you notice me? No? Then I'm hidden. 

 

This requires no extra coding. No extra mechanics. No need for counter mechanics to balance. It all comes down to individual ability to detect changes in movement, coloration, light, etc -- true stealth against true perception.

 

I'm under the impression that it might be the easiest form of stealth to exploit.

 

I think camouflaged characters can be detected using unintended methods like visual enhancements or third party programs.

 

It may be the best solution if we can ensure that everyone plays by the rules, but we're probably not at it yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless you have tons of cover (foliage, walls, boulders, barrels etc, deep shadows) in the environment that can't be decreased in density by performance sliders, actually playing stealthy is likely not an option.  Not to mention, though a character may have their back turned to you the whole time, that doesn't mean their camera isn't swiveling around looking for you.  As the stealth player you get no clues to indicate how perceptive or aware your opponent is of their surroundings. 

 

I had some thoughts on the subject back in March.  That thread is here:

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/5574-another-use-for-those-ugly-telegraphs/


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2: The "blend in with terrain" stealth has been done in games like Arma and DayZ and it works fine for run and gun games not so much for hopefully what revolves around small, mid, and large scale fights, in that the game isn't balanced around 1v1 matchups.

 

3: I enjoy how you will "tell" Jtodd and Gordon "if you really wanted to be dynamic with this you would do X" could you please cite your game development experience and the business model in which your stealthing model worked in an MMO environment? If you can't I'll borrow a quote from Jtodd and say "Trust them"

 

The game is constantly changing and is nowhere near completion but as it stands with how the system worked as of Hungerdome 1.0 I don't see anyway in which that system is feasible.

 

Read my old posts. I've debunked #2 already in an open world mmo called Darkfall, which used natural hiding and cursor-nameplates. Look it up.

 

You're really big into citing "successful business models" and "major games" from the past. If the Crowfall devs wanted to churn out as much money as possible for the fewest innovative ideas, they'd be making a cookie-cutter mmo and not Crowfall. 

 

People like you that have pigeonholed games into being like previous games are ruining the future of mmos for everyone. Fewer and fewer developers will risk trying anything new as long as people like you demand to go back to what is safe and comfortable and known in mmos.


aka honeybear

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless you have tons of cover (foliage, walls, boulders, barrels etc, deep shadows) in the environment that can't be decreased in density by performance sliders, actually playing stealthy is likely not an option.  Not to mention, though a character may have their back turned to you the whole time, that doesn't mean their camera isn't swiveling around looking for you.  As the stealth player you get no clues to indicate how perceptive or aware your opponent is of their surroundings. 

 

I had some thoughts on the subject back in March.  That thread is here:

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/5574-another-use-for-those-ugly-telegraphs/

 

You don't need much to be stealthy besides patience and a large rock, a small building, or a tree. Really anything that can block your line of sight to someone you're watching. Then you just wait for noise - farming mobs for example - to mask your approach. 


aka honeybear

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This would work in an urban setting, but I think in a world that may very well have quite a few open areas, stealthers would be incredibly weak.

 

In an urban setting you use crowds and shadows to hide in.  And please, please, please let me be higher in elevation than you and using a ranged attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This would work in an urban setting, but I think in a world that may very well have quite a few open areas, stealthers would be incredibly weak.

Haven't seen anything on the world and as far as urban goes, that'll depend on the players in how they decide to build their fortifications. There are trees, boulders, bushes, ruins, tall grass, shadows, take your pick as to what environmental factors can toggle stealth. What i don't want is the typical "i'm invisible and I can run for miles anytime, anywhere, for as long as I want, and STILL gank you before I toggle again" that is so prevalent with MMO stealth classes.

 

And if the stealth character are harder to play, then get good at finding cover and learn how to set ambushes. All I'm hearing is the same thing every stealth playersays at some point: "You're nerfing stealth so I have to use skill to stay OP, don't nerf me bro!" Frankly being stealthy is hard and should require some skill, real life doesn't have an invisibility toggle, otherwise Arya in GoT would be sooooooo OP and the seires would've ended in season 1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haven't seen anything on the world and as far as urban goes, that'll depend on the players in how they decide to build their fortifications. There are trees, boulders, bushes, ruins, tall grass, shadows, take your pick as to what environmental factors can toggle stealth. What i don't want is the typical "i'm invisible and I can run for miles anytime, anywhere, for as long as I want, and STILL gank you before I toggle again" that is so prevalent with MMO stealth classes.

 

And if the stealth character are harder to play, then get good at finding cover and learn how to set ambushes. All I'm hearing is the same thing every stealth playersays at some point: "You're nerfing stealth so I have to use skill to stay OP, don't nerf me bro!" Frankly being stealthy is hard and should require some skill, real life doesn't have an invisibility toggle, otherwise Arya in GoT would be sooooooo OP and the seires would've ended in season 1.

I don't think people wanting to play stealth characters actually want to play deer hunter 2016.  It also has to be fun in a world that is somewhat random and might not have a lot of cover to use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You don't need much to be stealthy besides patience and a large rock, a small building, or a tree. Really anything that can block your line of sight to someone you're watching. Then you just wait for noise - farming mobs for example - to mask your approach.

 

Played Darkfall for a year and even signed up and played a bit with the various reiterations of the game. Darkfall could have been great but if you want to talk about a game that should never be used as an example for game development Darkfall is it... With such a great concept and such trash execution on concept Darkfall is one of the larger jokes in MMO history... Shadowbane had bugs... But Darkfall the hackers and the development team were laughable...


"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...