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Played Darkfall for a year and even signed up and played a bit with the various reiterations of the game. Darkfall could have been great but if you want to talk about a game that should never be used as an example for game development Darkfall is it... With such a great concept and such trash execution on concept Darkfall is one of the larger jokes in MMO history... Shadowbane had bugs... But Darkfall the hackers and the development team were laughable...

 

Tell me how Darkfall's stealth system was flawed, impossible for this game to use, or inferior to a toggle stealth system. 


aka honeybear

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Haven't seen anything on the world and as far as urban goes, that'll depend on the players in how they decide to build their fortifications. There are trees, boulders, bushes, ruins, tall grass, shadows, take your pick as to what environmental factors can toggle stealth. What i don't want is the typical "i'm invisible and I can run for miles anytime, anywhere, for as long as I want, and STILL gank you before I toggle again" that is so prevalent with MMO stealth classes.

And if the stealth character are harder to play, then get good at finding cover and learn how to set ambushes. All I'm hearing is the same thing every stealth playersays at some point: "You're nerfing stealth so I have to use skill to stay OP, don't nerf me bro!" Frankly being stealthy is hard and should require some skill, real life doesn't have an invisibility toggle, otherwise Arya in GoT would be sooooooo OP and the seires would've ended in season 1.

I'm going to assume here (I know... I know...) And say that a lot of the "infinite stealth OP" talk is coming from people who never played Shadowbane so I'll explain the basics of how it worked. The stealth game in SB was a very large play/counterplay you had many DPS stealth classes, assassins, thieves, burst mages with non permenant stealth but it was recastable by the time it ran out, etc. Then you had classes with tracking like scouts and rangers and even a discipline rune which added a smaller area track to almost any class... Scouts however were key, scouts had perma stealth, tracking, and also a see invisibility power... This led to group compositions that required planning... While you could run a full group of the most OP flavor of the month class you just might get wrecked by a stealther spec group lurking in wait. Mix a couple scouts into the mix and now out beyond the main group it became a chess match of scouts detecting and trying to walk his group onto the stealthers before popping them and the stealth group trying to remain unseen and slip past the scouts to wreak havoc in the back line... To balance scouts they were relatively low to mid damage that synergized around popping stealthers and soft ccing them so their group could mop up.


"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

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Tell me how Darkfall's stealth system was flawed, impossible for this game to use, or inferior to a toggle stealth system.

 

As far as the system and how it would be impossible in this game even though all we gave seen is greyscale world right now they would have to add entirely too much mesh textures(that again would have to NOT have the ability to be turned down which would own older machines) for a crouching "real" stealth to be feasible and as they have said they are trying to maximize performance for large scale many player battles that makes that system very unlikely.


"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

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As far as the system and how it would be impossible in this game even though all we gave seen is greyscale world right now they would have to add entirely too much mesh textures(that again would have to NOT have the ability to be turned down which would own older machines) for a crouching "real" stealth to be feasible and as they have said they are trying to maximize performance for large scale many player battles that makes that system very unlikely.

 

Thanks for playing.

 

In your year of darkfall, you apparently never successfully ambushed anyone, were never in a siege that made use of terrain, or you just never understood how stealth was used in pvp. That's understandable because a lot of people played that long and just never get that knowledgeable of the game. 

 

I run something of an older rig and never had problems with even large scale sieges. You can trust me when I say that I and every other player turned their graphic settings on lowest to maximize fps and minimize foliage clutter. That does not mean we didn't have armor designs that were darker and designs that were lighter; armor that glinted and armor that didn't. There was even a hair color you could pick that made your hair (and beard) a neon yellow, which made you stand out in the middle of a siege of eighty people. Even without floating names you could pick someone out of a crowd by looking for their neon hair. There were also golden bracers that minotaurs dropped that, if you wore them, could be spotted as easily as a sniper spots a lit cigarette from a mile away: Hence, it was unwise to wear these bracers or hair colors unless you wanted to be seen.

 

All of this was simple coloration and texturing. At its lowest quality game settings it still made the difference in being seen or not. 

 

Unless we're playing MSPaint the MMO, where there are only solid color walls, fields and trees, you are correct. Natural stealth would not work. Assuming the Crowfall art team is planning on doing more than pressing the "Fill with color" button on their textures for backgrounds, terrains and armor, they will organically be providing natural color schemes that do and don't stand out from one another. This isn't something they need to do, they'll already be doing it. This stealth mechanism is already in place because its too fundamental as a simple art design not to. 

Edited by vucar

aka honeybear

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If the draw distance is great enough and the player model is far enough away to only be drawn as a handful of pixels then your color against the background may be sufficient camo, but real camouflage is just as much about breaking up your outline to disguise your shape.

 

To have natural stealth you need a combination of obscurance (hiding behind cover), camo, disguise, as well as the ability to sense what your target can perceive from their perspective. Nothing worse than thinking your well hidden, when in reality your nameplate, shadow, or bulky weapon is giving away your position. Hopefully nameplates will be a non-issue, having the ability to lay prone would be welcome as well, though that means additional animations.


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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So I see a lot of theory crafting about what people WANT in Stealth, in some cases going into some detail.  Some nice ideas in the thread, and it sounds like Art+Craft has some ideas in the wings.

 

Perhaps it might be helpful if everyone replied with short, concise bullets of what they DIDN'T  like in Stealth in other games, without too much War & Peace over it.  Just the cliff notes versions.  Taking a quick scan of everyone's list might also tell us something of benefit.

 

Note:  The samples below DO assume characters either same level, or close to it.  The samples below were NOT drawn from a, for instance, level 10 trying to detect a level 60.

 

For myself:

 

"Stealth" that more acted like Invisibility.  Pop it anywhere, any time, in any lighting conditions, even 10ft in front of someone with them looking right at you.

"Stealth" that was too powerful / perfect.  Specifically:  The guy is standing 10 ft in FRONT of you . . . and he's completely undetectable. 

No relevant counters / detection / uncovering abilities.

 

I love Stealth.  It's flat out been one of the most fun factor skills in every game I've played.  However, it's been so much fun so often because of it's efficacy.

 

Stealth should be about caution, cautious movement.  It's not about (IMO) careless conduct, rapid movement . . . all powered by The Klingon Cloaking Device.

 

So, in short descriptions, what have each of you NOT cared for in Stealth in other games.


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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My brainblob on stealth:

  • Frustrating for players because they feel like they don't have an answer if they get blown up by an unseen enemy.
  • A pretty big piece of mmo combat. Who else is going to take out the back liners? Tanks? Characters that can leap to the backlines with 0 risk involved in getting there?
  • Realistic systems seem fun on paper, but players being players always find a way around them. Turning off foilage. Adjusting gamma. etc etc. Requiring these settings bumps the min spec and loses potential customers. Also cost to develop vs. payoff isn't worth for this kind of project IMO.
  • Stealthers as patient hunters can marginalize them in group play. DAOC groups never cared to have a stealther in their ranks.
  • Poisons are cool. Always loved the "debuff" stealth class.

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One thing I found particularly distasteful in LOTRO was the ability for stealth classes to pop full-invisibility in the middle of battle, completely undetectable for ~5 seconds, pop a movement speed increase, and just get out of any situation. The abilities to do this were on long cool downs, but then you'd have players who would not go into battle unless they were off cooldown. 

 

There was nothing cheesier than fighting someone you know would only fully engage if they were going to win and could always get away if they were going to lose.


aka honeybear

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One thing I found particularly distasteful in LOTRO was the ability for stealth classes to pop full-invisibility in the middle of battle, completely undetectable for ~5 seconds, pop a movement speed increase, and just get out of any situation. The abilities to do this were on long cool downs, but then you'd have players who would not go into battle unless they were off cooldown. 

 

There was nothing cheesier than fighting someone you know would only fully engage if they were going to win and could always get away if they were going to lose.

 

Yeah.  I also recall, hmmm, wasn't that a "bag exploit" or something as well?  Reset stealth instantly on a bag swap or something, on the one item that allowed a stealth detect?  Been a while.

 

Bottom line was:  Bag swappers could permanently nullify the counter-detect by simple item swap that was spammable.

 

Also, I recall in Rift in it's early release months anyway:  Just awful.  I recall in a PvP area where a same level character was taunting myself and others by running into them FACE FIRST . . . . and they'd never appear except for a flick of a second when they got nose-to-nose to you, then flick out of view as they ran through you.

 

The guy was running around, getting in front of people, then running right through them face first knowing other players would only see him for a split second when the toons were about kissing, then blink, gone.

 

Really tricky topic.  I imagine it's got a lot of tough design choices around it.  I love a lot of the ideas in this thread, but, as others have said it's really too early to second guess.

 

So long as it's not over the top, does not act like invisibility (to too high a degree), requires SOME mode of stalking to maintain effectiveness (e.g. frontal 90 degrees at least is the worst position for stealth to be effective, while behind the best, to the sides somewhere in between), and relevant (but not too numerous) counters / detects available, perhaps including AUDIBLE.

 

And yeah:  You get clipped by an AoE . . . Stealth should end.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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As far as the system and how it would be impossible in this game even though all we gave seen is greyscale world right now they would have to add entirely too much mesh textures(that again would have to NOT have the ability to be turned down which would own older machines) for a crouching "real" stealth to be feasible and as they have said they are trying to maximize performance for large scale many player battles that makes that system very unlikely.

 

I'm not necessarily saying using BD or Darkfall's "non-invis stealth" approach is the way to go either, as that is just incredibly resource intensive, for both the dev to run on their servers and the player to run on their computer, plus it probably wouldn't work/have loopholes in terms of players adjusting their graphics. Sure, it's great to dream of being able to stalk in the tall grass and using the environment to conceal your movements and position to make you feel like a clever badass and ACTUALLY hiding instead of just popping invis like a 2 year old throwing a sheet over themselves and pretending people don't see them, but that's not really realistic at this time or for this game.

 

All I ask is that, if the devs do go with an invis toggle, at least lay down environmental conditions to limit their usage and restrict their range. So players could only activate and stay in stealth so long as they were within a certain range of stealth granting environmental objects (like trees and boulders or obstacles to hide behind, or bushes and shadows to conceal their profiles). This would at least limit their range of effectiveness and the time spent in stealth, as stealthers would have to spend time exposed to run between stealth-granting terrain (always found it unbelievably stupid that I could stand in the middle of an open field, with nothing around me, and still be "ambushed" by some idiot who literally pushed a button, marched right up to me, and started button mashing...really stealthy...).

 

Restricting the areas and range that stealth could be activated and used based on the terrain would actually allow for strategy for all players (such as whether to move a caravan through the forested shortcut, with plenty of cover for stealthers to set an ambush, or to take the long way around, where there is less stealth-able terrain), and counterplay based on how observant players are of their surroundings, in which veteran players always enter stealth-able terrain with great caution and reluctance, and stealthers preying and going ham on those who'd dare trespass in their domain. This way, the invis crowd gets their invis toggle, and the realism crowd gets a stealth system that is actually somewhat based on planning and terrain, all without breaking the system.

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For myself:

 

"Stealth" that more acted like Invisibility.  Pop it anywhere, any time, in any lighting conditions, even 10ft in front of someone with them looking right at you.

"Stealth" that was too powerful / perfect.  Specifically:  The guy is standing 10 ft in FRONT of you . . . and he's completely undetectable. 

No relevant counters / detection / uncovering abilities.

 

I love Stealth.  It's flat out been one of the most fun factor skills in every game I've played.  However, it's been so much fun so often because of it's efficacy.

 

Stealth should be about caution, cautious movement.  It's not about (IMO) careless conduct, rapid movement . . . all powered by The Klingon Cloaking Device.

 

So, in short descriptions, what have each of you NOT cared for in Stealth in other games.

Short blobs, huh? Well here goes:

 

-Unparalleled control of engagement (and often disengagement) of combat.

 

-Ability to often avoid combat entirely without consequence.

 

-Complete control of positioning in stealth.

 

-Lack of realism based on actual hiding/environmentally based stealth (for many if the reasons you mentioned...literally targeting an enemy and suddenly I can't see him...feel like the AI in the Metal Gear Series. When someone hides IRL it is often/100% of the time due to something in the environment breaking the outline or profile.)

 

-Can be jumped anytime anywhere regardless of precautions (I could be in a 1 mile open field with clear line of sight in 360 degrees and STILL NOT HAVE SEEN the "senaky" rogue who marched right up to me and stabbed me in the gut).

 

-General attitude of stealth players (the ones who read the class description and picked it simply because the idea of invisibility sounded OP with the least amount of skill and expect entitlement to be 1 man armies (because of "skill") and cry when they are nerfed).

 

-The CONSTANT rebalancing cycles caused as a result of the intrinisic advantage BEING INVISIBLE grants players.

 

-The lack of couterplay to a single gimmick and the feeling of inaction against stealthers.

 

Keep in mind, talking only about invis toggle stealth. Some games actually do stealth right, but most of these are camouflage or environment-based

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-Lack of realism based on actual hiding/environmentally based stealth (for many if the reasons you mentioned...literally targeting an enemy and suddenly I can't see him...feel like the AI in the Metal Gear Series. When someone hides IRL it is often/100% of the time due to something in the environment breaking the outline or profile.)

 

 

I agree with everything but this. I never understood the realism argument. We've got horsemen and Floatie book fire wizards but someone turning themselves invisible is out of the realm of possibility?

 

 

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I agree with everything but this. I never understood the realism argument. We've got horsemen and Floatie book fire wizards but someone turning themselves invisible is out of the realm of possibility?

 

Well, ask yourself this: if one person can suddenly turn invisible, why aren't they all invisible? What's the downside?

 

I know with fiction, the term reality cam be stretched thin, but it's still there as a grounding mechanism for us to percieve the chamges and absurdities taking place. The more real and grounded a famtasy, the more immersing and attached we become to it. Would you be as invested in GoT or LOTRO if the magic is constant and nonstop? Those moments where the fiction tries to relate to us, as opposed to the other way around makes it more visceral amd compelling, at least imo

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Well, ask yourself this: if one person can suddenly turn invisible, why aren't they all invisible? What's the downside?

 

I know with fiction, the term reality cam be stretched thin, but it's still there as a grounding mechanism for us to percieve the chamges and absurdities taking place. The more real and grounded a famtasy, the more immersing and attached we become to it. Would you be as invested in GoT or LOTRO if the magic is constant and nonstop? Those moments where the fiction tries to relate to us, as opposed to the other way around makes it more visceral amd compelling, at least imo

There's a lot of stories that don't ground their magic. I don't recall Harry Potter ever getting into the specifics. But I don't disagree with you too much there.

 

My question though is why is the line drawn with stealth? I'd venture to argue if magic classes were more universally annoying in MMOs people would be ranting about how it was unrealistic that someone can conjure a fireball without at least reagents. Tanks in full plate take a fireball to the dome and barely flinch, though no explanation is given beyond the sometimes offered "magic resist". Stealth usually doesn't have lore explaining like other things like magic, becuase it generally isn't as interesting.

 

Rogues go stealth, cuz that's what rogues do. It's an abstraction that could be answered many ways. In the middle of battle, you didn't see that guy sneak up next to you because you were too busy fumbling through your spell book. Just as that huge axe that came down on you took off a chunk of hp instead of killing you outright like it would in the real world, because it was more of a grazing blow and you still have enough stamina left to avoid that headsplitting attack. 

 

In a perfect world, I'd love to see some form of camouflage system, but like you said it just isn't realistic to expect from Artcraft. I've just heard this realism argument throughout the years and always thought it was a strawman.

Edited by zachdidit

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Rogues go stealth, cuz that's what rogues do. 

It would make more sense for a magician to disappear in front of my eyes than a "rogue".

 

I would assume a true rogue would never have been detected to begin with, and that when he was visible its because hes dipping out to turn a corner, go behind a tree or around a hill. You don't need camouflage game mechanics to make a stealth archetype; it would be cool but its entirely unnecessary. 

 

Playing an archetype that relies on stealth should require the player to actually think like a rogue in order to succeed at stealth

 

In planetside 2, huge battles go on between sometimes as many as 100v100 on both sides over important facilities. Tanks, lasers, fighter jets, airship bombings, infantry dug in and making pushes and counter pushes. Actually being in the middle of the fight as an infantry, pushing the line, usually means you have an expected lifespan of under ten seconds. When your facility is under siege like this, it is virtually impossible to actually destroy an enemy tank, or an enemy sunderer (convoy truck). What I prefer to do, as a heavy demolitions type with no stealth abilities whatsoever, is I make miles-long roundabout cross-country paths, on foot, way out from the base, come back around, run through the hills and the forests and over rocks and large boulders, careful to choose the least exposed path as possible. If that means running even farther out and farther around, I run that much farther. I invest precious minutes on a single life to running very far out, all to increase my odds of remaining undetected. Usually, the by-the-number enemy soldiers are all looking at the base I just escaped from; tanks cannon scopes are zoomed in, snipers are all looking at base walls, turrets all facing away, dozens of hostile infantry only yards away are all rushing towards the base, and no one sees me run down a hill from behind to plant explosives. 

 

I have an exceptionally high rate of success in taking out well entrenched, well defended tanks and spawning trucks that could never have been reached by the 100+ allies still at the base. I get my explosives off, take out a target, switch to my light machine gun and slaughter whatever poor infantry are still alive amidst the fire and the smoke and confusion as they try and figure out whats hitting them. 

 

This is what it should feel like as a rogue. You should have to plan how you get to enemies undetected, knowing full well that your failure or success depends on your personal patience, your guile, and your wits.

Edited by vucar

aka honeybear

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It would make more sense for a magician to disappear in front of my eyes than a "rogue".

 

I would assume a true rogue would never have been detected to begin with, and that when he was visible its because hes dipping out to turn a corner, go behind a tree or around a hill. You don't need camouflage game mechanics to make a stealth archetype; it would be cool but its entirely unnecessary. 

 

Playing an archetype that relies on stealth should require the player to actually think like a rogue in order to succeed at stealth

 

In planetside 2...

 

This is what it should feel like as a rogue. You should have to plan how you get to enemies undetected, knowing full well that your failure or success depends on your personal patience, your guile, and your wits.

But Planetside 2 had a stealth class. One of the most annoying if you were a pilot like me. Because they'd sneak behind the battle lines, steal your AA guns and shoot you when you thought you were safe.

 

My argument here is that realism is a subjective term and is being used for a specific purpose. If realism were the true reason behind the distaste then stealth wouldn't be the only thing called the the lime light.

Edited by zachdidit

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But Planetside 2 had a stealth class. One of the most annoying if you were a pilot like me. Because they'd sneak behind the battle lines, steal your AA guns and shoot you when you thought you were safe.

My argument here is that realism is a subjective term and is being used for a specific purpose. If realism were the true reason behind the distaste then stealth wouldn't be the only thing called the the lime light.

It's not just the realism, but realism is referenced because in reality, "stealth" is very hard to pull off, very slow, and very heavily based on your surroundings. Stealth in MMO's are typically very easy (toggle), very quick (toggle and the "fast crouch" build), and are completely independent of you surroundings or positioning. But i digress...

 

The main issue with stealth, or specifically invisibility, is the inherent advantage that being invisible grants a person in an MMO and it's effect on the game's balance:

  • Unparalleled control of engagement (and often disengagement) of combat.
  • Ability to often avoid combat entirely without consequence.
  • Complete control of positioning in stealth.
  • The CONSTANT rebalancing cycles caused as a result of the intrinisic advantage BEING INVISIBLE grants players.
  • The lack of couterplay to a single gimmick and the feeling of inaction against stealthers
Those are the real problem with stealth. Realism is a reference point of what stealth is really like and are presented as valid suggestions for reworking how stealth works in video games. Some game shave tried using more camouflaged approach to simulate it, but when it comes to brass tacks, the main complaint for those advocating no stealth or stealth rework are really looking for ways to balance the issues that are inherent with the simple fact if being invisible. Many devs go with nerfing stealth classes in stats, abilities, damage, health, pretty much everything other than the actual invisibility mechanic. By making stealth more realistic, posters are actually trying to limit invisibility's inherent advantages as listed above by introducing the obstacles that discourage or hinder someone hiding or sneaking around in the real world.

 

So, you're absolutely right, it is a strawman. Realism isn't the real issue (though it would be nice, don't get me wrong, from a simulation pov), it's balancing, with realism used as a referencepoint for suggesting how stealth might be more balanced, by introducing real world limitations, obstacles, and restrictions.

Edited by RKNM

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But Planetside 2 had a stealth class. One of the most annoying if you were a pilot like me. Because they'd sneak behind the battle lines, steal your AA guns and shoot you when you thought you were safe.

 

What I prefer to do, as a heavy demolitions type with no stealth abilities whatsoever,

 

 

I was a fool to think bolding was enough to get the attention this qualification needed. I know reading an entire paragraph seems like a lot but come on, i bolded it for you and you still missed it? Do i need to make it have changing colors and confetti?

 

If you're going to quote me and respond me, make sure you read the entire post before you embarrass yourself again.

 

After you've read my post completely for the first time, i want you to get a baking timer and spend 60 full seconds in reflection on the point I might be trying to make. This is your reading comprehension assignment I give to you. I'm not going to continue to debate this on a substantive level until I know i'm dealing with someone that reads complete posts. 

Edited by vucar

aka honeybear

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There's a lot of stories that don't ground their magic. I don't recall Harry Potter ever getting into the specifics. But I don't disagree with you too much there.

 

My question though is why is the line drawn with stealth? I'd venture to argue if magic classes were more universally annoying in MMOs people would be ranting about how it was unrealistic that someone can conjure a fireball without at least reagents. Tanks in full plate take a fireball to the dome and barely flinch, though no explanation is given beyond the sometimes offered "magic resist". Stealth usually doesn't have lore explaining like other things like magic, becuase it generally isn't as interesting.

 

Rogues go stealth, cuz that's what rogues do. It's an abstraction that could be answered many ways. In the middle of battle, you didn't see that guy sneak up next to you because you were too busy fumbling through your spell book. Just as that huge axe that came down on you took off a chunk of hp instead of killing you outright like it would in the real world, because it was more of a grazing blow and you still have enough stamina left to avoid that headsplitting attack. 

 

In a perfect world, I'd love to see some form of camouflage system, but like you said it just isn't realistic to expect from Artcraft. I've just heard this realism argument throughout the years and always thought it was a strawman.

 

I don't agree with the comparison between people's reactions to Stealth versus magic users and fireballs.  Any complaints in that department would be par for the course for any DPS class's output.  Maybe CC, if any, might come closer.

 

Specifically, stealth as a character ability is completely UNIQUE to human players for one very key reason:  It is unique in that it's the only ability I'm aware of that supercedes, or drives right past, the game's UI in it's affect on human players:  You don't see, therefore don't perceive the stealthed player.

 

This is POWERFUL beyond belief tactically, particularly if wielded by someone who's actually an intelligent PvP guru.  And if the class is capable of any damage or CC whatsoever once they engage it can be devastating.

 

Compare the idea I've presented against what you've suggested:  "Magic users with fireballs who where annoying".  Ok, I've had to face off against high-DPS classes before.  Burst babies kill you in three shots, if not one depending. 

 

Sure, that's annoying.  But it's an entirely different scale of "annoying".  I can still SEE and perceive my opponent.  I can still call out tactical to my team mates (he's heading this way, that way, he's a Mage, a Warrior, a Ranger, he's geared, he's not geared, etc., etc.).  I can still adapt, because I see and perceive him, what his power level / skill is versus me.  I might chose to try and kill him, or I might try to run, or I might try to kite him, cc him, tie him up until my buddies show up.

 

All because, at the human level, I see and perceive the person / threat, which engages my mind.  Seconds to process, formulate, react occur at a basic level.

 

Now, think about Stealth (invisibility): 

 

As a human you aren't even aware they are there.  Obvious, right?

 

But it's for that reason it classes a step above other abilities because it drives right to the human player on the other side of the keyboard in ways nothing else does.


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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Sure, that's annoying.  But it's an entirely different scale of "annoying".  I can still SEE and perceive my opponent.  I can still call out tactical to my team mates (he's heading this way, that way, he's a Mage, a Warrior, a Ranger, he's geared, he's not geared, etc., etc.).  I can still adapt, because I see and perceive him, what his power level / skill is versus me.  I might chose to try and kill him, or I might try to run, or I might try to kite him, cc him, tie him up until my buddies show up.

 

All because, at the human level, I see and perceive the person / threat, which engages my mind.  Seconds to process, formulate, react occur at a basic level.

 

 

This! I agree with you 100%. While I'm saying, realism isn't a strong arguing point, I do agree that gameplay where you can't respond before your dead isn't fun. Giant nuke casters/ CC on the level of DAOC/ one shot stealthers is flat out no fun on the receiving end.

 

I remember Valve mentioning how the sniper was so hard to design for TF2 because everyone hates dying without the information of what was happening. This was a big reason they put the sniper rifle's red dot in the game. At least you knew the sniper was looking in your direction before he popped you. 

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