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freeze

Friendly Fire isn't something you tack on at the end...

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People cry there are no textures, devs implement it... silence.

People cry to have premade teams, devs implement it... silence.

People logically reason why FF needs to be enabled... "OMG, PLEASE PROVIDE SCIENTIFIC PROOF FOR HAVING IT IN A ALPHA TEST OF A PVP GAME LOL STATE UR REASONS SIR!!!!!!!"

 

 

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Textures are important because with an open development process their tests are being streamed and that basically becomes advertisement for the game, so yea they will try to make the game look attractive and prioritize where they see fit. 

 

I think it's pretty obvious that developing premade team oriented systems will serve a purpose for the game later on as well, it's something they felt they should do, so they did it. 

 

The reasoning for enabling FF right now isn't really logical.  The game is extremely early in its development, to the point that they are still just creating spell types and behaviors just to understand how to adjust it in their game physics.  FF isn't needed right now, and when it is needed they will probably add it.

 

Some people are passionate about FF being in right now, some are skeptical... if people who are passionate would like to make a good argument for adding it now they should go ahead...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Not to mention the skills have all huge cones for some reason (= they don't want the skill ceiling to be too high). Which means it's very hard not to hit your team mates right now. I am very worried about this.

 

+1

 

Yeah, I notice the same thing about the new Archetype too, Champion. 

And the fessor is probably useless with the dregs ruleset setting. 


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Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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...

 

I'll sum up your argument: "They did it, so it was done, and if they do it again, it will be done. Nature works in mysterious ways. Sheeva will align with the stars in two weeks and the earth will rotate by 0,001 PCN, this means you may become lucky and win something. Now the weather"

 

You wrote alot, but yet again, managed to leave out any substance in your post.

 

2/10.

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I have never cried about anything game related in my life.  I am just questioning whether enabling friendly fire is essential at this point.  I agree with you that textures are not, but it makes sense that they would be a process being worked on an implemented over time; especially with no NDA.

 

Personally, I don't give a custard about God`s Reach rule set and faction wars - it`s so custard pointless!!
I`ll never participate in a God`s Reach campaign anyway.. Freeze`s point and some others here; it`s much harder to design combat to FF environment/setting based on combat powers.
Edited by mythx

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Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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FF isn't going to work with the current powers, 3/4 classes would be useless. Confessor's would be the only ones able to put damage on the same target without murdering each other. TBH, I don't see friendly fire happening without gimping melee characters significantly or a huge revamp on the targeting system and attack cones.

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FF isn't going to work with the current powers, 3/4 classes would be useless. Confessor's would be the only ones able to put damage on the same target without murdering each other. TBH, I don't see friendly fire happening without gimping melee characters significantly or a huge revamp on the targeting system and attack cones.

 

This is why FF needs to be here right now, because it will reveal that this silly and very slow animation lock leads to cockroaching on top of each other. This in turn leads to less movement, more static positioning and therefore zerging instead of player skill.

 

The goal should be a very fluid, less obstructed and highly controllable movement with the ability to pin-point attack/use abilities (AoE included). This is the heart of any dynamic and great combat system, no matter the class you plan to play.

 

Another thing: Heals should be aimed only AND at the same time heal the enemy if you miss your ally or use an AoE aura near your enemies.

Edited by Qbs

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This is why FF needs to be here right now, because it will reveal that this silly and very slow animation lock leads to cockroaching on top of each other. This in turn leads to less movement, more static positioning and therefore zerging instead of player skill.

 

The goal should be a very fluid, less obstructed and highly controllable movement with the ability to pin-point attack/use abilities (AoE included). This is the heart of any dynamic and great combat system, no matter the class you plan to play.

 

Another thing: Heals should be aimed only AND at the same time heal the enemy if you miss your ally or use an AoE aura near your enemies.

 

You are exactly right.


An old and grumpy gamer who should have grown up years ago.

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After playing tonight I just don't see how FF would work at all in the present game.

 

There are very few precision attacks, especially for meele. In Chivalry and Darkfall you have the option to use vertical swings or straight line pokes to avoid FF.

 

When there is no way to control your atttack arc and everything is a sweeping motion, you won't even be able to use basic attacks without team killing.

Edited by jacobin

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It will be as simple as them adding friendly fire when they are ready to add it and people adapting... the ones that won't/can't adapt will claim it is broken and perhaps if there are enough on that side of the fence they will make significant changes to it.

 

People saying things like with cone based attacks it is not practical to have friendly fire are perhaps a bit misguided.  First they need to make sure their movement system, latency, responsiveness, and spell behavior are in a good place before anything else. 

 

Friendly fire works fine whether their projectiles arc or not, or whether melee swings have a cone or not... it just requires different types of tactics to play around.  Some archetypes and/or abilities should be aoe, some should be very precise, and from that different tactics will arise.  One could easily make the argument that having a lot of conebased melee attacks and aoe in general makes people play significantly smarter if friendly fire is enabled.  To the people that say "oh it's impossible everyone will just play ranged".... Well some people will always gravitate to whatever is easiest, but the min/maxers will gravitate to what works best.  There are competitive gamers out there that are coordinating very complex tactics that require very precise timings and reactions...  So thinking you can't coordinate with your bud on how to weave in and out and combo the most effective melee attacks together without hurting each other is a bit silly. 

 

We all understand funism > realism, and that means that in some places tactics will not be the same as one might see when screaming bayonets only at their civil-war reenactments.  In other places you may see similar to real world tactics.  Would you expect a bunch of people to swing recklessly point blank at the same target without consideration for what one another are doing?  Not if they were well-trained and looking for maximum effectiveness.   So why would you expect melees to be able to just all huddle together and swing without worrying to much?

 

I've yet to see any mechanic in crowfall or anything from the combat tests that indicate friendly fire will not work with their game.  And like someone sort of mentioned in another post here, what would be the point of friendly fire if you didn't have to carefully consider how you play with it on? 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The goal should be a very fluid, less obstructed and highly controllable movement with the ability to pin-point attack/use abilities (AoE included). This is the heart of any dynamic and great combat system, no matter the class you plan to play.

Great point. Honestly I don't know how this current combat system is going to work with friendly fire enabled. When I think of an MMO with friendly fire that worked, I think Darkfall. To have the experience not be completely frustrating, attacks need to be fast and precise. Right now every attack is an incredibly slow, giant cleave. I don't see it working.

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Projecting ahead, I kind of expect a huge cluster of people to be a very frustrating situation to have FF turned on for basic attacks; Or even worse, the champion whirlwind attacks. I think damage to teammates should be reduced, so the game can still have consequences, and be immersive, but also not allow players to devastate their friends or make an aoe based character worthless in aoe situations.

Edited by Approxy

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After playing tonight I just don't see how FF would work at all in the present game.

 

There are very few precision attacks, especially for meele. In Chivalry and Darkfall you have the option to use vertical swings or straight line pokes to avoid FF.

 

When there is no way to control your atttack arc and everything is a sweeping motion, you won't even be able to use basic attacks without team killing.

 

Therefore Pre-Alpha

 

These Tests are not tests about balancing, testing out rulesets or presenting something which has anything to do with the finished product, except with the core systems (physics, character control, etc.) being tested. I mean it is totally right for a caster having the same amount of health as a knight. BALANCE!!!! not..... (<- please don't take it seriously)

 

To me Friendly Fire should be introduced with 2.0 or later on when they actually work on the archetypes powers, skills and what not. Now we should (and probably do) test the new client server relation, other systems, etc. (attributes, etc.).

 

While I do agree that FF is a very high risk factor the game heavly depends on I have to say let the team handle the game in their pace. It doesn't really produce any value if you turn on FF right now when they want to test out how physics behave .

Edited by Thyr

You get the wolves...lots of wolves...and sheep that wear armor and have developed an appetite for blood soaked grass - dubanka

Even insects smell good when roasted - a random confessor

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After playing tonight I just don't see how FF would work at all in the present game.

 

There are very few precision attacks, especially for meele. In Chivalry and Darkfall you have the option to use vertical swings or straight line pokes to avoid FF.

 

When there is no way to control your atttack arc and everything is a sweeping motion, you won't even be able to use basic attacks without team killing.

 

Yes, and earlier ACE notice weaknesses in their combat design than better in my opinion. 


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Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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Projecting ahead, I kind of expect a huge cluster of people to be a very frustrating situation to have FF turned on for basic attacks; Or even worse, the champion whirlwind attacks. I think damage to teammates should be reduced, so the game can still have consequences, and be immersive, but also not allow players to devastate their friends or make an aoe based character worthless in aoe situations.

It's supposed to be frustrating if people run around in a huge cluster and aren't properly coordinated they should suffer for that in an FF system. 

 

I also do not think FF damage should be reduced, or at the very least there should be certain rulesets where it is not reduced, and then they can reduce it to varying degrees for other rulesets so people can find the setting that they are personally comfortable with.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Therefore Pre-Alpha
 
These Tests are not tests about balancing, testing out rulesets or presenting something which has anything to do with the finished product

 
​This kind of thinking is the core problem here, because people think FF is something you can tack on at the end, like OP said.

​The line of reasoning is very simple: FF requires abilities to be built around it, not 'tuned' or 'balanced' at a later date. It's the lowest common denominator under which abilities will be developed and used. Not a custard ruleset for the "unwanted psychopaths" of this community being switched on at the end of development.

​All the current abilities and mechanics, which were designed on the drawing board seem to be created for a combat system which has:
1. slow pace
2. low player skill cap
3. no FF.

​Most  seasoned PvP players from FFA PvP games unwillingly got to know the Red Flags of game mechanics during development of games over the years. With over 99% of Kickstarter projects utilizing the patented "Ye, we're making a game for hardcore PvP players, this is only a Beta, real game will be different, we pinky promise!!"-treadmill, you can't play this card conveniently anymore - even if you show people that you put in all of your savings as a developer, as this is not a statement of guarantee either.

​Don't mistake our feedback here for some random uninformed user's opinion who simply wants to get his way. We simply see how developers react and how much Red Flags pop up and make the decision to either bail or stay. Simple as that. No drama, just honesty.

​3/4 of my 300 man strong community, which is currently getting tired of Eve,  and some other guilds I know of gave this project a big "custard you!" just because of Eternal Kingdoms and some other factors I don't want to mention out of sincerity. So I'm actually the optimistic one around here.

Edited by Qbs

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Don't worry, FF won't exist in this game. Especially if combat (melee combat in general) stays the same. Right now the lack of split second adaptation is hurting combat. CF is not fast paced "twitch combat" and that's fine, but I also find it to be a cumbersome mess. I challenge anyone to go play a modern mmo with "action" combat, whether it be gw2, Tera, bdo, (or even DCUO) and come back here and tell us that the that characters movement and the camera / aiming is not awful.

 

And to those people who say that FF is not a critical combat component that needs early testing. LOL. It's absolutely critical to combat, it basically changes the experience and dynamic of combat completely. It will either make it fun and challenging or turn it in to a complete cluster custard. If your combat isn't designed from the ground up to accommodate friendly fire (which currently it isn't) you're going to have BIG issues.

 

I honestly can't remember the last time they even talked about friendly fire. I think internally they've come with terms that it wouldn't work and are just trying the right time to drop it on us. Either that or they've decided to water it.

Edited by helix

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​This kind of thinking is the core problem here, because people think FF is something you can tack on at the end, like OP said.

 

There's a difference between tacking something on at the end and not including it in pre-alpha.  The game isn't even in alpha yet, there is no need to be dramatic like FF is being tacked on at the end, because we are not at the end, and we do not know when it will be tested. 

​The line of reasoning is very simple: FF requires abilities to be built around it, not 'tuned' or 'balanced' at a later date. It's the lowest common denominator under which abilities will be developed and used. Not a custard ruleset for the "unwanted psychopaths" of this community being switched on at the end of development.

 

This is pretty much untrue... you do not need to build abilities around FF, players need to build tactics around FF.  Give people a lot of different types of abilities and let the players figure out how to play with those tools. 

​All the current abilities and mechanics, which were designed on the drawing board seem to be created for a combat system which has:

1. slow pace

2. low player skill cap

3. no FF.

 

Let's wait til they fix the most important aspect of the game (movement) before we really try to judge what their combat is...

​Most  seasoned PvP players from FFA PvP games unwillingly got to know the Red Flags of game mechanics during development of games over the years. With over 99% of Kickstarter projects utilizing the patented "Ye, we're making a game for hardcore PvP players, this is only a Beta, real game will be different, we pinky promise!!"-treadmill, you can't play this card conveniently anymore - even if you show people that you put in all of your savings as a developer, as this is not a statement of guarantee either.

 

Sure people can be skeptical based on the past, but it doesn't do anyone any good to make sweeping generalizations and not properly evaluate the context and where ACE is at in development. 

​Don't mistake our feedback here for some random uninformed user's opinion who simply wants to get his way. We simply see how developers react and how much Red Flags pop up and make the decision to either bail or stay. Simple as that. No drama, just honesty.

 

Which red flag has truly popped up in pre-alpha testing for you?  ACE has been transparent with their development, we understand what we are getting and what to expect.

​3/4 of my 300 man strong community, which is currently getting tired of Eve,  and some other guilds I know of gave this project a big "custard you!" just because of Eternal Kingdoms and some other factors I don't want to mention out of sincerity. So I'm actually the optimistic one around here.

 

If people judge crowfall based on the EK that is their prerogative but it tells me they didn't really think about the other things the game proposes and the vision of the founders.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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