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Friendly Fire isn't something you tack on at the end...

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I challenge anyone to go play a modern mmo with "action" combat, whether it be gw2, Tera, bdo, (or even DCUO) and come back here and tell us that the that characters movement and the camera / aiming is not awful.

 

​While I fully agree with the rest of your post, I wouldn't call gw2, Tera or the others you've listed "modern action mmo's". Only if you mean by modern "theme parks for players with short attention span" and by action "thinky you're fast but in reality you're slow and boring".

​The only game I think has considerable combat pace with animation locks is Black Desert, but it has no friendly fire and not exactly a FFA PVP game anyway. Their dev was unintentionally honest and funny: "Since it’d be very difficult for Players to maintain their focus during a Castle-Siege, we think that friendly fire wouldn’t be a good idea, as such it won’t be present in the game". At least he's honest by saying that FF requires too much skill in context of the baddies playing their game.

Edited by Qbs

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This is pretty much untrue... you do not need to build abilities around FF, players need to build tactics around FF.  Give people a lot of different types of abilities and let the players figure out how to play with those tools.  

 

This is entirely untrue. Abilities DO need to be built around FF. In fact an entire archetype ability set needs to be built in consideration of FF. Tactics are an after effect of all this.

 

Take for example the champion's whirl wind attack. If FF was on right now, this would be basically be a no guano ability. If you had other friendly melees around, you would almost never be able to use it. Situational abilities are fine, but abilities like this where you most likely only use it 5% of the time, with a limited action set are pretty terrible. 

 

We're not talking about having a bar of 40 abilities, we're talking about having a bar of 10. If it comes down to "I can't use half my bar because we're too melee heavy and most of my abilities cleave", the developers / designers have effectively failed.

 

If FF was introduced with the all the cones and cleave attacks, it will be hilarious. 

 

Right now combat is EXTREMELY cone heavy based, this is not FF friendly. 

 

Sure they can turn on FF in alpha, but since they've said on numerous occasions that the pre-alpha is COMBAT FUNDAMENTAL FOCUSED (and don't kid yourself, FF is a combat fundamental, it changes everything) and it's not in the test, hasn't been talked about at all for months (not even brought up in the combat chats), I think it's a good call to consider it dropped.

 

I don't blame them tho, they have a lot on their plate with "real" physics, lousy character movement, voxels, etc. FF would be one more thing to add to the pile and extremely over complicate combat.

 

Make no mistake, FF in a game like this is not an easy thing to implement and balance. Especially when you have hundreds of abilities.

 

 

 

While I fully agree with the rest of your post, I wouldn't call gw2, Tera or the others you've listed "modern action mmo's". Only if you mean by modern"theme parks for players with short attention span" and by action "thinky you're fast but in reality you're slow and boring".

 

I should of used DFO as a example as well. FF worked in DFO, because DFO's combat was orbital highly mobility based, and they structured abilities around the fact the game was going to have FF. FF can be a slight inconvenience that players have to plan around when implemented correctly, or an infuriating nuisance when done wrong. 

 

GW2, Tera, and WS look and feel like speedy gonzales in comparison to the rigid, stationary combat of CF currently.

Edited by helix

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This is entirely untrue. Abilities DO need to be built around FF. In fact an entire archetype ability set needs to be built in consideration of FF. Tactics are an after effect of all this.

 

They aren't even tailoring archetype kits right now, they are basically just testing spell behaviors in relation to their physics and getting certain types of spells into the mix.  Also in reality you don't actually need to consider FF at all, you could simply turn it on and let the players learn to coordinate and adapt around it.  Tactics with FF on and off will always be drastically different. 

 

Take for example the champion's whirl wind attack. If FF was on right now, this would be basically be a no guano ability. If you had other friendly melees around, you would almost never be able to use it. Situational abilities are fine, but abilities like this where you most likely only use it 5% of the time, with a limited action set are pretty terrible. 

 

It would come down to coordination, you would learn the effective range of the ability and create timing windows with your allies for when you found it to be efficient to use the ability. 

 

We're not talking about having a bar of 40 abilities, we're talking about having a bar of 10. If it comes down to "I can't use half my bar because we're too melee heavy and most of my abilities cleave", the developers / designers have effectively failed.

 

You aren't supposed to be able to use your abilities willy nilly, you gotta pick and choose based on the situation that is presented to you. 

 

Right now combat is EXTREMELY cone heavy based, this is not FF friendly. 

 

It's not supposed to be FF friendly, i'd actually prefer it to be FF unfriendly because it makes people play much much smarter.  If the combat was extremely precise FF would be diminished in value. 

 

Sure they can turn on FF in alpha, but since they've said on numerous occasions that the pre-alpha is COMBAT FUNDAMENTAL FOCUSED (and don't kid yourself, FF is a combat fundamental, it changes everything) and it's not in the test, hasn't been talked about at all for months (not even brought up in the combat chats), I think it's a good call to consider it dropped.

 

You are of the opinion that FF is this super big thing that needs to be addressed asap, that's fine.  But FF really can just be turned on like a switch. 

 

I don't blame them tho, they have a lot on their plate with "real" physics, lousy character movement, voxels, etc. FF would be one more thing to add to the pile and extremely over complicate combat.

 

Make no mistake, FF in a game like this is not an easy thing to implement and balance. Especially when you have hundreds of abilities.

 

I'm not really worried because it all boils down to a very basic principle.  The more hardcore type players will play FF, and they will learn to adapt and create tactics around it.  I think people are making it out to be a bigger deal than it actually is as far as combat balancing.

 

 

 

 

I should of used DFO as a example as well. FF worked in DFO, because DFO's combat was orbital highly mobility based, and they structured abilities around the fact the game was going to have FF. FF can be a slight inconvenience that players have to plan around when implemented correctly, or an infuriating nuisance when done wrong. 

 

GW2, Tera, and WS look and feel like speedy gonzales in comparison to the rigid, stationary combat of CF currently.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I should of used DFO as a example as well. FF worked in DFO, because DFO's combat was orbital highly mobility based, and they structured abilities around the fact the game was going to have FF. FF can be a slight inconvenience that players have to plan around when implemented correctly, or an infuriating nuisance when done wrong.

 
​DFO is a bad comparison. I'm only referencing it when it comes to ganking, loot mechanics or seamless implementation.

​Let's not kid ourselves; If CF would be even remotely close to the combat speed & mechanics of DF, this forum would produce so much tears we would need a custard submarine to navigate. This is not limited to your average carebear but also includes the majority of the SB tryhards as well, who got pretty much face melted off the map after DF release.
 
I remember the threads from the SB elite on forumfall: "pls make safe zones", "I GET ATTACKED ON SIGHT! THIS IS HORRIBLE", "wow, so much griefing. custard psychopaths". Delicious.

Edited by Qbs

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What about AOE heals if FF is engaged would you heal the enemy?!

 

Yup.

 

I agree, if FF is intended for the game at all (and it should be, at least for the The Dregs) it needs to be turned on at some point soon.

 

There are a ton of tactics currently employed in the Hungerdome that would be complete disaster with FF turned on.


   

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I say skip it...

- FF is going to break AOE combat completely. Go ahead and describe an instance in which AOE attacks will be usable in a FF world.

- You won't be able to fight as a mixed group of melee and ranged since the ranged squishies that need to stay behind their melee tanks will only be able to hit their own team. Many archetypes eliminated from feasability already.

Based on the combat I've seen so far (and yes, it's only been two tests for me so far), I see FF as a ruleset addition to put in some campaigns that will see very little participation. So why make it such a priority? Just to illustrate what a frustration it will cause? You will see more ally kills than enemy kills just from trying to take out monsters on the way to the castle.

 

- If FF is an unavoidable fact, then yes, you better get it in there. 'Cause everything combat in the game will be completely different.

Edited by mcfear

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I say skip it...

- FF is going to break AOE combat completely. Go ahead and describe an instance in which AOE attacks will be usable in a FF world.

- You won't be able to fight as a mixed group of melee and ranged since the ranged squishies that need to stay behind their melee tanks will only be able to hit their own team. Many archetypes eliminated from feasability already.

Based on the combat I've seen so far (and yes, it's only been two tests for me so far), I see FF as a ruleset addition to put in some campaigns that will see very little participation.

 

Many abilities in Darkfall have an AoE component. FF doesn't break it at all. It just makes you have to think about what you are doing.

 

That being said, the current pool of abilities seem to be tuned under the assumption that there will be no FF.


   

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This is pretty much untrue... you do not need to build abilities around FF, players need to build tactics around FF.  Give people a lot of different types of abilities and let the players figure out how to play with those tools.

 

If you think developers say to themselves "we'll just put this game altering, combat defining feature in and let the players worry about it, no need to build our abilities around it" You're delusional.

 

There ARE a lot of different abilities, except 80-90% of them are AOE based. Almost everything you do in the game is a cone or a cleave based attack. The reason for this is they don't want an extremely high skill ceiling where you need pin point accuracy to hit your target. It is very easy to hit somebody in CF when the awful camera is not fighting against you. That's fine, most of the people playing this game are old custards trying to recapture their nostalgia for games like DAOC and SB, neither of which were the highest echelons of skill based play. That alone right there should be a clear indicator that FF will never make it in to the game.

Edited by helix

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I say skip it...

- FF is going to break AOE combat completely. Go ahead and describe an instance in which AOE attacks will be usable in a FF world.

- You won't be able to fight as a mixed group of melee and ranged since the ranged squishies that need to stay behind their melee tanks will only be able to hit their own team. Many archetypes eliminated from feasability already.

Based on the combat I've seen so far (and yes, it's only been two tests for me so far), I see FF as a ruleset addition to put in some campaigns that will see very little participation.

 

​Sure: good players playing the game, while bad players complain and lose. Quick and painless answer.

​Your question is ignorant in the light of all the previous FFA PvP mmos out there.

​The only valid argument you can make is: "I don't feel me and certain people can manage the skill cap of FF being implemented, therefore out of personal reasons, I oppose this"

Edited by Qbs

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Many abilities in Darkfall have an AoE component. FF doesn't break it at all. It just makes you have to think about what you are doing.

 

That being said, the current pool of abilities seem to be tuned under the assumption that there will be no FF.

 

DFO let's you gun and run, which actually gives you an additional tool to deal with FF. In the original DFO, everyone built for every situation, which made FF very easy to deal with.

 

You could also switch your stance as a melee (from a swide sweeping attack, to an over head "single target" attack). Basically combat was built with FF in mind; nothing in CF shows me this is the case tho.

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​Sure: good players playing the game, while bad players complain and lose. Quick and painless answer.

​Your question is ignorant in the light of all the previous FFA PvP mmos out there.

​The only valid argument you can make is: "I don't feel me and certain people can manage the skill cap of FF being implemented, therefore out of personal reasons, I oppose this"

 

Ignorance aside, your point of view is just as ignorant as mine. It's your "personal reasons" that has you calling other people ignorant. Without name calling I simply said that the game I played for the last two tests will not work with FF and that if someone has decided that FF is going to be in, it does need to be in NOW because combat will have to be 98% different to work even just a little. Otherwise we'll wait until you've been team killed 50 times and see how your stance changes.

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DFO let's you gun and run, which actually gives you an additional tool to deal with FF. In the original DFO, everyone built for every situation, which made FF very easy to deal with.

 

You could also switch your stance as a melee (from a swide sweeping attack, to an over head "single target" attack). Basically combat was built with FF in mind; nothing in CF shows me this is the case tho.

 

I think the problem isn't AoE in particular. It's mostly the huge prevalence of cone based attacks. A stance swapping mechanic that drastically reduced the width of all cone attacks might be a viable solution.

 

But yea, the seeming lack of thought put into the abilities as far as FF goes seems to indicate they aren't planning to have it at all, which is the biggest downer about combat right now IMO.


   

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Many abilities in Darkfall have an AoE component. FF doesn't break it at all. It just makes you have to think about what you are doing.

 

That being said, the current pool of abilities seem to be tuned under the assumption that there will be no FF.

 

Ok, look at the confessor, almost entirely LOS and AOE in addition to being squishy. This archetype will not work in a FF environment.

 

EDIT - Just read your last post, and ya, it doesn't look like the current combat system was made to be in an FF environment. If it were to be added at a later date, a lot of changes would have to be made or additions (like your stances idea) put in to make it work. Again, I feel the only reason to put it in NOW is if it's going to  be a mandatory part of the game.

Edited by mcfear

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Ignorance aside, your point of view is just as ignorant as mine. It's your "personal reasons" that has you calling other people ignorant. Without name calling I simply said that the game I played for the last two tests will not work with FF and that if someone has decided that FF is going to be in, it does need to be in NOW because combat will have to be 98% different to work even just a little. Otherwise we'll wait until you've been team killed 50 times and see how your stance changes.

 

And if we plan on having massive, 100 man, guild vs guild battles, I can tell you right now that it will not work.

 

 

 

Ok, look at the confessor, almost entirely LOS and AOE in addition to being squishy. This archetype will not work in a FF environment.

 

Confessors will be the only thing left standing.

 

 

 

​Sure: good players playing the game, while bad players complain and lose. Quick and painless answer.

 

 

Good players will be playing the Dregs where there are no allies to kill.

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Ok, look at the confessor, almost entirely LOS and AOE in addition to being squishy. This archetype will not work in a FF environment.

 

Yea, I agree with you. 

 

You are basically just rewording my second sentence with a specific example.


   

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If FF is something they are planning to do, it NEEDS to be implemented and tested ASAP. I am new here but an integral part of the game like that cannot be tacked on and 'lol lets balance later' it will not work, entire classes will have to be redone and redesigned with FF in mind.

 

Its better to go forwards without FF. Many might say this makes it less 'hardcore pvp' but I dont think it does, realistically. I dont actually know many mmo's which have friendly fire in pvp. 

 

Archeage certainly didn't, and that was very pvp focused.  

 

Granted, that without FF you do get a lot of dumbing down of combat and I acknowledge that. 

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