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Friendly Fire isn't something you tack on at the end...

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FF was prob not introduced due to the fact that with people just starting out, being killed by teammates would make people rage and stop playing/paying

 

FF is a staple feature of counterstrike.  In the event you get some unpleasant person who just continually kills teammates they should be autokicked from the test arena.  Very simple.  

 

You need friendly fire to be implemented very early on to ensure game balance works properly.  You can't just tack on fratricide at the end of combat development and hope everything works out alright, because it won't.  

 

If you want to have a carebear server ruleset with ff off, that's fine, but plz plz plz keep ff on in Dreggs.  

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After playing the alpha I'm not sure how friendly fire would work for this game. Attacks have cones, aoe, etc.

 

The point being made here is that it will change how the testers play, and as devs watch this change, they will learn how to correctly balance a game with friendly fire.


aka honeybear

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After playing the alpha I'm not sure how friendly fire would work for this game. Attacks have cones, aoe, etc.

 

That`s why we create threads like this @Blazzen, and question ACE motives and plans for the future with their current combat design, because very few SB guilds will participate in God's Reach CW rule set with factions.


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After playing the alpha I'm not sure how friendly fire would work for this game. Attacks have cones, aoe, etc.

 

If your friend is within the cone, aoe, etc, he will be damaged.  (Or possibly healed with a healing spell)

 

Simply don't aim your cone at an ally.

 

Yes it's more challenging, but no it's not impossible.

 

Friendly fire with cone, ray, ball, (pretty much every other style of attack you can think of) has been proven to work in Darkfall Unholy Wars and it can work in Crowfall.  

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In pvp, you'd probably see fights break into a lot more 1v1s or 1v2s -- things would spread out a bit more. You wouldn't be able to have your whole team gang-bang one confessor, unless your team was all confessors, and then you could all nuke one guy down at range.

 

Friendly fire allows for more depth and new metas to evolve in team based pvp.

 

While I understand what you are saying, seems like DF was mainly small skirmish and 1v1 type combat, even if there were several folks fighting, it seemed like more of 1 chasing 1 due to the movement/targeting system. I briefly played it early on and that's all I remember, but I wasn't part of any larger scale combat.

 

So far, CF is not very similar to that and if they hope for large battles, DF system wouldn't work too well with how people seem to like to play in other large scale PVP type games. They could adapt, but I would assume ACE would be the one doing so after feedback.

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Lets not kid ourselves, CW with FFA, full loot, FF will be the minority and while The Dregs were sold as the core of the game, I doubt that the core (majority) population will be playing it. Much like the EKs and features that will bring in larger crowds, designing the game around what most will probably be playing makes sense.

 

As has been said, FF will force people to adapt, but I doubt the end result will entertain enough people to keep it going or at least not at the level of other options.

 

Thankfully they are open to trying new things and will go where the fans want to (hopefully).

 

I'm all for FFA and FF, but I'm not going to be surprised when the experience doesn't deliver. Only hope the other options aren't too far removed.

Edited by allein

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While I understand what you are saying, seems like DF was mainly small skirmish and 1v1 type combat, even if there were several folks fighting, it seemed like more of 1 chasing 1 due to the movement/targeting system. I briefly played it early on and that's all I remember, but I wasn't part of any larger scale combat.

 

​You're absolutely right. DF had very very small skirmishes, with like only 500-600 people on the spot. I wish they would have had mid-sized group combat with at least 200,000 players or larg scale combat with 10 Million players. Anything below that is 1v1.

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While I do see the argument that it should be tested as early in the development as possible, I think it's too early to say that the current combat system won't work with FF or that the devs aren't keeping FF in mind while building the combat. At the moment we have seen/played four Archetypes out of 13 total. Also there is no Specializations or Disciplines in place yet nor is there any sort of character advancement or customization.

 

Wild speculation:

I'm guessing not all Archetypes/builds will be viable choices in FF rulesets. I mean combat and tactics for rulesets with FF takes different thinking and skills so it would make sense that the same will be true for building a character that's viable and/or specialized for FF play.

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They definitely have bigger priorities than FF... FF is something that doesn't really need to be tested til beta when they have most if not all archetypes up and most of the framework of the game up.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I agree, if FF is added to all rulesets, it needs to get added in very very soon.

 

However, if FF is added to the current build there will be no end of issues. The way in which movement, and attacks are "working" presently --- e.g. skill delays+chocky movement+cone based attacks ... I would say it'll be a disaster. You cannot presently get the accuracy of character control and movement to avoid hitting your own teammates.

 

The testing at present (it's hella fun!) consists of clusters of people smashing the poorly made socks out of various targets. This weekend saw more alignment of groups and classes, and better comms as people used their own guild voice comms....but yeah - friendly fire right now would see mucho problemo.


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They've said repeatedly that all of the abilities are subject to change. This testing is more about testing different mechanics. Yes, FF should be one of the mechanics they test, but that is more of a balancing thing than a will it work thing. Making FF work is probably as simple as changing a flag setting on each ability, or maybe it's a global setting. Either way, I don't think they are really worried about whether or not the mechanics of FF will work. The balancing for FF will come later.

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Maybe it would be helpful if the Devs outlined exactly what they want tested. I was under the impression that we were doing Combat Testing, which would mean testing the mechanics of combat, how skills will work etc. If that is what we are supposed to be doing then testing friendly fire would seem like a good thing to do before you start locking in the details of how these mechanics will function. Put simply, don't waste time testing a mechanic that is likely going to change drastically once you implement friendly fire. If we are not testing combat, then outline the specifics of what you want us to be looking for. It makes it easier for me as a tester to focus on the aspects they want to work on if I know what to look for. 

 

As others have said, and I have said it myself for quite a while, under the current combat system friendly fire would be an absolute nightmare. The devs could squash this entire thread with a few sentences directed to the topic of friendly fire and how they see it working or what the internal deliberations are for the time being. We don't need a finalized system but at least it would stop the constant bickering between the white knights and those who see a clear problem on the horizon.

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The biggest problem with tacking on friendly fire later is that there won't be skills designed to benefit from it. Without FF, most attacks benefit from wider area of attack and poor delivery isn't as bad because missing isn't endangering allies.

 

With FF, skills which emphasize precision and small hit boxes become more relevant, as powerful rampaging attacks benefit fighting alone and against greater numbers while precise attacks benefit fighting en mass and against smaller forces.

 

You can attempt to adjust things like projectiles by just working around allies and poking between them, but in an action game, it means you and your allies have vastly less freedom to participate since melee and ranged units have to avoid each other more.

 

This becomes particularly evident once we have bow users, if they only have straight shot and no arc fire, they won't be able to fire over melee protectors. Having different variations of attack delivery can greatly deepen combat specifically for friendly fire, with dead zones, attack trajectories and so on.

 

It also plays heavily into archetype diversification, as a juggernaut like Champion can be an effective AoE thrasher, but lack the variety of efficient cooperative attacks a standard infantry deploys, or the focused single target destruction an assassin offers.

 

A Champion may have one good precision attack option which he's relegated to when clustering with allies against fewer foes, but be extremely efficient when he plunges into a large group of foes alone.

 

Not prioritizing friendly fire in the skill and combat design greatly hinders the depth of combat as a whole, they advertised friendly fire as the status quo, I hate to see it relegated to a bastard alternative.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

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Not prioritizing friendly fire in the skill and combat design greatly hinders the depth of combat as a whole, they advertised friendly fire as the status quo, I hate to see it relegated to a bastard alternative.

 

​Exactly, but at this point we're repeating ourselves here. Devs are aware of what they're doing. If they won't comment on this issue, the next 1-2 tests will show their stance ultimately.

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Speaking of attack arcs, that in and of itself presents a problem. Now your attack has a very specific attack range/area and unless you show that on the ground to the user it becomes difficult at gauging the range and area that will be impacted. With a straight line attack you will hit anything between you and a determined "end" range. If you apply arc you now have multiple variables to consider. Will my arc go over the Champion the same as the Gerbil? Can I attack with it point blank? At what point does the arc go over my target. If I arc my shot over my ally will I also overshoot the opponent? The simple solution is to show a ground area affect and let the player launch as if the projectile simply fell from the sky, ignoring all object between you and the target. The downside to this is it eliminates the ability for an opponent to "block" for his squishies etc. There is not a perfect solution either to straight line attacks or skill arc but in my opinion adding skill arc adds a number of issues while solving relatively few.

 

edit: missed some words

Edited by Verot

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