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Friendly Fire isn't something you tack on at the end...

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In Unholy Wars (second iteration of DF), there were "archetypes" similar to CF and one was called Baresark. This archetype was melee heavy, and one of its abilities was a whirlwind that blinded and sent everyone around him flying into the air, away, in the direction opposite the player. Seeing CF's Champion in action reminds me a lot of this playstyle because it rushes in, hits hard and has wide reaching attacks. 

 

In UW, if you had a Baresark in your team, they'd stampede (literally, the ability was called stampede; it knocked people aside) into enemy groups, blow all their aoe cooldowns and fragment the enemy group, shelling them all apart from each other, sometimes knocking people off cliffs or into the sea. It caused a lot of chaos, drew a lot of attention, and then if the Baresark was smart he'd save enough cooldowns to get himself out and back to his line for heals. Problems arose when clans would send in multiple melees at a time, and Baresarks crashing into enemies would whirlwind their own fellow friendlies who were charging the lines. You couldn't have two Baresarks both rush in at once at the same point because they'd f*** each other up. It wasn't uncommon to hear people complaining about Baresarks that popped stampede by their friendlies as well. The point being, friendly fire had an impact on how these melee players engaged. Smart Baresarks considered their team when they went in. It was a successful tactic to cycle Baresarks and use your warriors to push the enemy lines tactically, in synergy with your other archetypes.

 

I don't see that happening with CF's Champion class. Right now, it doesn't matter whether hes whirlwinding through friendlies as long as theres even one enemy in front of him to hit. Artcraft doesn't need to balance anything around him because no ones complaining about how hard it is to play a Champion that can't engage enemies without killing all of his friends in the process. No one is thinking in the right mindset with FF turned off. This is going to set the devs back a long time in development of the game if they get to Beta, turn FF on and realize "Oh sh**, half of these classes are over powered and the other half can't do anything with FF". 


aka honeybear

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To be honest we just aren't ready for super finesse play in combat. Yes we have the rough outlines of tactical gameplay that comes with animation locks, slower movement speeds, and combos. Which is great! I already see people getting out of the way of NPC tell attacks, and reading the other players animations to block incoming CC. I saw a knight block a champion flying neckbreaker to prevent the knockdown. (He then shield spun the Champ and stunned him, was great)

 

Crowfall as a technology stack is still young. 

 

The FPS for most people is too low with the recent addition of NPCs, our netcode is still maturing, we have no client based prediction, and the character movement controller is still server based. If we wanted to make things more FF friendly at the current stage, I suspect it would be an un fun experience for the vast majority of players. The responsiveness just isn't there yet. I suspect that introducing FF with the current state of things would cause even more of a freakout than the lack of FF because I don't think it would be playable and thus fun. While you guys are testing for us, I would like to provide for you at a minimum, a fun experience overall even though there may be some small annoyances.(Like perma F to interact)

 

Every test we do moves us forward. I saw one of the bigger connection server crashes get identified on Friday, fixed and added to the build on Saturday, and deployed with no more crashes for the Sunday playtest. It is great that we are able to keep building at this breakneck pace, which I hope enables us to get to all the features we promised.  


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ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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​​

To be honest we just aren't ready for super finesse play in combat. Yes we have the rough outlines of tactical gameplay that comes with animation locks, slower movement speeds, and combos. Which is great! I already see people getting out of the way of NPC tell attacks, and reading the other players animations to block incoming CC. I saw a knight block a champion flying neckbreaker to prevent the knockdown. (He then shield spun the Champ and stunned him, was great)

 

Crowfall as a technology stack is still young. 

 

The FPS for most people is too low with the recent addition of NPCs, our netcode is still maturing, we have no client based prediction, and the character movement controller is still server based. If we wanted to make things more FF friendly at the current stage, I suspect it would be an un fun experience for the vast majority of players. The responsiveness just isn't there yet. I suspect that introducing FF with the current state of things would cause even more of a freakout than the lack of FF because I don't think it would be playable and thus fun. While you guys are testing for us, I would like to provide for you at a minimum, a fun experience overall even though there may be some small annoyances.(Like perma F to interact)

 

Every test we do moves us forward. I saw one of the bigger connection server crashes get identified on Friday, fixed and added to the build on Saturday, and deployed with no more crashes for the Sunday playtest. It is great that we are able to keep building at this breakneck pace, which I hope enables us to get to all the features we promised.  

 

​Thank you for the general outline, but this doesn't resolve the main issue pointed out in this thread:

Despite the possibility to fine-tune animation locks at a later date, as well as resolving standard issues of alpha-gameplay like bad latency, responsiveness and low fps, the overall slow pace or lack of precision abilities will render gameplay with FF impractiable for certain archetypes and transform the combat into a fixed clustercustard.

​No matter which game with FF we're talking about, combat with FF generally requires quick engages and dis-engages and most of us don't see that happening with the pace, fixed animation locks and movement type you've settled for. [again, this has nothing to do with latency issues or movement prediction, as this is an concept issue]

The second issue, if keeping the current system, will be wholly different tactics, favored classes and dynamics depending whether the ruleset has FF enabled or not; this essentially means that some classes will be more playable on God's Reach than in The Dregs, turning the game into a balancing nightmare and, most importantly, will force you to chose to which player group to appease to with blanacing. On the long run this will split the community. Imagine the carebear tears if someone plays God's Reach and finds out that his archetype is either useless or bad in The Shadow or The Dregs, because of FF. Will you be there for me? Saying "Ah, Qbs, custard these custardbears, I'll support you and your pro-gamers" while Gordon hovers over your head, telling you how much new players this game needs? I don't think so.

​If this concept (anti-orbital movement, animation locks, slow pace) is your 100% final word [again, not the latency issues], then at least take a look at other games which have implemented it. Terra is the absolute negative example for it, SWTOR as well. Black Desert is more like it and the absulute bearable minimum of an animation locked system, while keeping the gameplay fun, challenging and dynamic, although they don't have FF enabled (dev said too difficult with animation locks.)

​Bottom of the line is: FF is an absolute must-have. No way around it. This is the deal breaker or the cash cow for 90% of all FFA PvPers.

​TL;DR: you still have to read it

Edited by Qbs

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  1. ​​​Bottom of the line is: FF is an absolute must-have. No way around it.
  2. This is the deal breaker or the cash cow for 90% of all FFA PvPers.​
  1. Maybe for you, but I see a totally viable game without FF.
  2. Most likely still a minority of the whole Crowfall community. How much you like it or not.

They way you write your opinions makes it almost seem like they are facts. They are certainly not that.


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  1. Maybe for you, but I see a totally viable game without FF.
  2. Most likely still a minority of the whole Crowfall community. How much you like it or not.

They way you write your opinions makes it almost seem like they are facts. They are certainly not that.​

 

​Appeal to mass only works in communism. Please refer to comrade Stubbs for Party membership.

Edited by Qbs

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​Appeal to mass only works in communism. Please refer to comrade Stubbs for Party membership.

 

Ignoring the minority is actually a democracy thing. But let us not digress.


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  • Maybe for you, but I see a totally viable game without FF.
  • Most likely still a minority of the whole Crowfall community. How much you like it or not.
They way you write your opinions makes it almost seem like they are facts. They are certainly not that.

A game? Sure. Not the game some of us really want. I have confidence they will deliver, though. It's the second pre-alpha test, they only have the basis of a fraction of the archetypes in and are still adding lots of tech to each new archetype. It's something to keep in mind, but nothing to be too worried about for now.

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To be honest we just aren't ready for super finesse play in combat. Yes we have the rough outlines of tactical gameplay that comes with animation locks, slower movement speeds, and combos. Which is great! I already see people getting out of the way of NPC tell attacks, and reading the other players animations to block incoming CC. I saw a knight block a champion flying neckbreaker to prevent the knockdown. (He then shield spun the Champ and stunned him, was great)

 

Crowfall as a technology stack is still young.

 

The FPS for most people is too low with the recent addition of NPCs, our netcode is still maturing, we have no client based prediction, and the character movement controller is still server based. If we wanted to make things more FF friendly at the current stage, I suspect it would be an un fun experience for the vast majority of players. The responsiveness just isn't there yet. I suspect that introducing FF with the current state of things would cause even more of a freakout than the lack of FF because I don't think it would be playable and thus fun. While you guys are testing for us, I would like to provide for you at a minimum, a fun experience overall even though there may be some small annoyances.(Like perma F to interact)

 

Every test we do moves us forward. I saw one of the bigger connection server crashes get identified on Friday, fixed and added to the build on Saturday, and deployed with no more crashes for the Sunday playtest. It is great that we are able to keep building at this breakneck pace, which I hope enables us to get to all the features we promised.

I can totally respect the fact that FF isn't deployed yet because the system isn't strong enough to handle it yet, having a minimum viable product to entertain backers during production is invaluable.

 

It doesn't necessarily allay the concern that the combat and gameplay doesn't seem to be expressing actions that would deepen friendly fire gameplay though, like dead zones in certain hit boxes or arcing projectiles, even narrow melee attacks that would benefit melee friendly fire.

 

If it's not in the core design, FF is going to be ugly, I don't want FF on what we have, I want combat that's designed to interact with FF deeply.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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To be honest we just aren't ready for super finesse play in combat. Yes we have the rough outlines of tactical gameplay that comes with animation locks, slower movement speeds, and combos. Which is great! I already see people getting out of the way of NPC tell attacks, and reading the other players animations to block incoming CC. I saw a knight block a champion flying neckbreaker to prevent the knockdown. (He then shield spun the Champ and stunned him, was great)

 

Crowfall as a technology stack is still young. 

 

The FPS for most people is too low with the recent addition of NPCs, our netcode is still maturing, we have no client based prediction, and the character movement controller is still server based. If we wanted to make things more FF friendly at the current stage, I suspect it would be an un fun experience for the vast majority of players. The responsiveness just isn't there yet. I suspect that introducing FF with the current state of things would cause even more of a freakout than the lack of FF because I don't think it would be playable and thus fun. While you guys are testing for us, I would like to provide for you at a minimum, a fun experience overall even though there may be some small annoyances.(Like perma F to interact)

 

Every test we do moves us forward. I saw one of the bigger connection server crashes get identified on Friday, fixed and added to the build on Saturday, and deployed with no more crashes for the Sunday playtest. It is great that we are able to keep building at this breakneck pace, which I hope enables us to get to all the features we promised.  

 

A couple interesting insights here. You guys are clearly refining your platform more then the combat engine at this point. Which is perfectly fine. I think people are more concerned at this point with animation locks and a poor-overall feeling the game has when playing. The elements you are refining are likely to contribute to a better "feel" so you ARE working on it, just not from the same angle as the players are.

 

Surely you can design a combat system that has noticeable "tells" when a player is performing an attack, without necessitating an animation lock on either players part. The question becomes, do you intend to stay the course with the somewhat (in my opinion) over the top animation locks? or is this by necessity part of the development process? Is this aspect of the combat system something you are willing to listen to player feedback and adjust if it remains an obstacle to players having fun or should we move on to other subjects at this point?

 

I also disagree that players wouldn't have fun with friendly fire turned on. That's just begging for more issues you aren't going to discover till later in the process when you finally do turn it on. If anything, mix up some of the matches with and without FF to see how players act with the various configurations. Surely its a switch you can flip at this point. I don't see how the additional data points could hurt when considering future design elements.

Edited by scree

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for the sake of debate, i agree friendly fire is GOOD for a pvp game. But what f a middle ground MUST be reached? like what if  a hybrid system was used? like...

 

a.) it becomes allies can block their allys spells / abilities but dont take dmg from them( they have already said this will be the case in terms of blocking), but for aoes they greatly reduce the potency of the ability by an amount for each ally hit ( making it very punishing to your dmg output to cast on allies, still promoting smart play.).

 

b.) as suggested earlier ally damage is majorly reduced.

 

c.) some abilities group friendly, some not ( for practicality).

 

d.) let gear allieviate damage from allys somehow ( greater then normal resistances or in addition to)

 

e.) give skills "alternate uses" . basically 2 versions of same skill: aoe and single target ( single target versions of base aoe abilities will be significantly weaker)

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for the sake of debate, i agree friendly fire is GOOD for a pvp game. But what f a middle ground MUST be reached? like what if  a hybrid system was used? like...

 

 

c.) some abilities group friendly, some not ( for practicality).

 

I've been talking to people in slack and my guild about it, and most are betting that this is the likely endgame here. It's not my favorite option, but it's one of the few ways I see FF being successfully implemented with the current system. (There's also a major precedent for it in SB.)

 

On the idea that certain characters will be better or worse depending on if their particular campaign has FF:This does not bother me at all, and in fact I think it's consistent with the game's previously established vision. One of the earliest design goals they shared was that every character would not be optimal for every context.


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 If anything, mix up some of the matches with and without FF to see how players act with the various configurations. Surely its a switch you can flip at this point. I don't see how the additional data points could hurt when considering future design elements.

 

159.gif


aka honeybear

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+1 I agree with op and posts regarding the implementation of FF. A good time to do it to avoid too much frustration is when they implement client controller so people aren't skating around killing each other by accident. I completely agree that FF needs to be in to see what kind of effect it will have on current abilities as well as influencing abilities are added or removed later on. Right now they are potentially wasting time developing abilities that are useless in a FF environment.

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I've been saying it since the start but I really think FF is going to be a minor thing. With the way campaigns have their own rulesets I'm sure there will be FF campaigns for those who want it.

 

However I seriously doubt they're going to change their entire design philosophy so accommodate FF. This game is going to have lots of characters with large hitboxes, huge arcing abilities with massive AoEs, animation locking, and probably will require a decent amount of lag compensation/server prediction to play smoothly. It's an absolute disaster for FF.

 

I'm sure there will be FF campaigns where the game will be completely different to what you see in the majority of campaigns. I thought FF was probably a bad idea after seeing early gameplay of Crowfall, after playing it I REALLY think it's a bad idea outside of specialized campaigns.

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Which campaigns won't have it? The way I understand the campaign structure is that the weakest risk and reward campaigns are the only ones where FF is minimal. All the best lewt for eks etc will be in the FF enabled worlds and that is where the end game will be. Better start designing the game around that sooner rather than later.

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Which campaigns won't have it? The way I understand the campaign structure is that the weakest risk and reward campaigns are the only ones where FF is minimal. All the best lewt for eks etc will be in the FF enabled worlds and that is where the end game will be. Better start designing the game around that sooner rather than later.

That isn't correct. FF will be on a campaign by campaign basis. There will be campaigns in the Dregs that have FF and campaigns that don't. Probably the same for the Shadow rule set. I doubt you'll see any FF campaigns in God's Reach or Infected. Faction based PvP and FF is just a bad combination.

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That's what I said. I don't see gods reach or infected being the end game and that's where theres no/minimal FF. They did talk about having it in faction though to penalize bad players, I can't remember which video was in. Either way, dregs is basically shadow, which is where all the fun will be happening sooooooo implement FF sooner rather than later? Since they can develop the game around having FF and turn it off with better results than designing it without FF and turning it on...

 

Edit: speelings

Edited by dirtbag

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