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MobFall

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Strong mobs have always added an interesting element to PvP.  In EQ1 pvp you had so much fighting over territory and it added to the complexity of fights when you had to factor in that when you were fighting other people there might be mobs in the area that you could use or have used against you.

 

Playing first generation mmorpgs with pvp people would be fairly comfortable with playing against the environment and pvping within that environment.

 

Though there are some people that don't share those same experiences and don't want things like mobs influencing pvp at all... to me having it this way is an incomplete mmorpg experience. 

 

Heck even survival games kinda show how awesome mobs can be even in pvp situations.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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It caused BOTH parties in a PvP face-off to have to THINK about the environment prior to engaging.  There was no ez-mode on the map, meaning deaf/dumb/blind/easily trashed manikin mobs weren't the norm.

 

When I play a PVP game, I want to think about how to overcome human opponents. They should be the hardest challenge, not programmed AI that simply is 'good' or 'a challenge' because it has higher pre-determined values set in the background spreadsheet.

 

When mobs have more of an impact on who wins than actual players simply because they were given high HP and DPS values, you are playing a PVE game with pvp tacked on the side - PvP on rails.

 

Calling PvP ez mode because it doesn't have raid-level trash mobs littered all over the map is really missing the point of what PvP is about.

Edited by jacobin

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When I play a PVP game, I want to think about how to overcome human opponents. They should be the hardest challenge, not programmed AI that simply is 'good' or 'a challenge' because it has higher pre-determined values set in the background spreadsheet.

 

When mobs have more of an impact on who wins than actual players simply because they were given high HP and DPS values, you are playing a PVE game with pvp tacked on the side - PvP on rails.

 

Calling PvP ez mode because it doesn't have raid-level trash mobs littered all over the map is really missing the point of what PvP is about.

 

I hear you.  However:

 

The days of lousy mob AI need to come to a close in the genre.  Having a map full of mobs that are about as complex as a windup mouse is getting stale.

 

It's a virtual world.  The mobs are part of that.  That means when players travel maps, mobs should simply be part of the proper experience.  No different than people leveraging LOS during fights ducking behind rocks / trees to evade ranged fire, or popping breathing potions when diving deep to avoid death hoping your opponent doesn't have one, or jumping off a cliff knowing you have the HP to survive the fall whilst your opponent is likely to die, or . . .  yes . . . having some mindless button-mashing Gerbilkin on drooling mode chasing you in glassy-eyed fashion, not paying attention, and leading them into mob agro while you walk off laughing.

 

There is OPPORTUNITY in good mob AI / conduct for PvP and human interactions, not impediment.  It contributes to diversity, and I contend is one aspect of injecting more of the unexpected, which you want.  "Farmvillers", of whatever sort, including gold farmers, thrive on "static and predictable".  Routines and runs that don't change much, or at all.  Mobs easily avoided due to complete (stupid) predictability.

 

Making the mobs smarter, less predicable, is, IMO, a good thing all the way around, and not an impediment to PvP.

 

All your conclusions in the latter part of your post are fabricated assumptions.  I never advocated "raid level trash mobs" wandering the landscape nuking players regardless of gear level.

 

In all cases, even if they made mobs exactly as Bramble wanted, your opening statement would still be true:  Overcoming human opponents will be your principle set of goals.  What makes you think that would change?

 

Shortest version:  NO cheap-assed, deaf/dumb/blind, dumb as a box of rocks mobs please.  They must be calibrated properly (power) of course, but they should reflect more of a "living, breathing, world" in conduct.

 

IMO of course.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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Strong and intelligent NPC's:

  • Force you to observe your surroundings and plan before attacking.  Is it safe to farm right now?  Can we finish this mob a loot real quick before those enemies catch up?
  • Allow a smaller party to overcome a larger force by ambushing while their opponents are engaged with NPC's.
  • Open up the potential for a clever player to lead pursuers into a trap, either turning the fight around or giving the opportunity to escape.
  • Acts almost as rough terrain, forcing players to thinking about their travel route instead of just running in a straight line.
  • Adds to the general danger level of the world.

I'm not seeing how

 

PvP with overly strong NPCs always sucks.

If anything, I'd make most every NPC a challenge to take down.  Sure, there are some bugs and balance issues right now (your run-of-the-mill mob probably shouldn't one shot a well equipped player), but those are minor issues that will get fixed as we go along.

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You can claim they create tactical fights, but the reality is that they actually kill good PvP and make good fights harder to find. They also take the responsibility for a win or loss out of the hands of a player.

 

The more PvE that is added, the less competitve the PvP will be. It could very easily just turn into a stand-off where no one wants to take any action since aggroing anything will result in a loss. Hence why in MOBAs, the mobs are a resource to fight over and not a direct obstacle to intesne PVP. Strong mobs are fine, but they should be rare and not dominating the center of the most conflicted area of the map.

 

When the hunger forces you into a small area filled with mobs, all of those tactical decisions you are talking about have no actual relevance to the current build.

 

And again the only reason why NPCs are a challenge is because of arbitrary 'cheat' codes giving them higher health and damage than the players.

Edited by jacobin

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You can claim they create tactical fights, but the reality is that they actually kill good PvP and make good fights harder to find. They also take the responsibility for a win or loss out of the hands of a player.

 

The more PvE that is added, the less competitve the PvP will be. It could very easily just turn into a stand-off where no one wants to take any action since aggroing anything will result in a loss. Hence why in MOBAs, the mobs are a resource to fight over and not a direct obstacle to intesne PVP. Strong mobs are fine, but they should be rare and not dominating the center of the most conflicted area of the map.

 

When the hunger forces you into a small area filled with mobs, all of those tactical decisions you are talking about have no actual relevance to the current build.

 

And again the only reason why NPCs are a challenge is because of arbitrary 'cheat' codes giving them higher health and damage than the players.

 

Sorry brother, that's not been my experience.  IMO an MMORPG is the format for "living, breathing" virtual worlds.  Otherwise, Counterstrike -------> that way.

 

As to "The more PvE that is added, the less competitive the PvP will be" doesn't make much sense:  The whole centerpoint to the CWs is to . . . collect PvE resources. lolol. 

  • The E)nvironment is being designed to set the stage for strategic and tactical PvP. 
  • Yeah, there's a difference between collecting Iron Ore and Mobs.  At the same time however they are all part and parcel of the Environment, and as such both represent TOOLS that can be used (properly) to meet the goal just stated.

Virtual worlds should start acting like it, instead of manicured lawns all emptied out to ez-mode it for the Players.  Sort of.  No one said place mobs every 10 yards on the maps, edge to edge, so that every step ANYONE takes generates  a wave of mob pulls, including Raid level bosses.

  • I would like to see smarter mobs generating more uncertainty / danger / unpredictability on maps.  Not only for the sake of PvP in general, but to mitigate or even neutralize deaf/dumb/blind, or static, slot car routines that are typically identified then leveraged by "farmers" . . . of whatever sort.

Having pockets of mobs on a PvP map does present tactical opportunities, no different than any other E)nironment artifact.  I remember having some fun in Rift when it first released with my Knockbacks .  . particularly if my opponent let me turn him around during the "dance" so his BACK was to the cliff edge.  Heh-heh-heh.  Funny stuff as he sailed off the cliff to his death.

 

Then there was the fellow who let me knock him back THREE TIMES, that's through three cooldowns, straight into the arms of an Elite mob camped back by a tree.

 

He was better geared, was going to win the fight through sheer button-mashing face-rolling . . . right up until I took stock of my surroundings to see how I might pull the fat out of the fire (two healer types, was going to take a couple of minutes, but he had the gear / HP so his HP loss was slower than mine).  Funny, funny, stuff from my view as I'm looking WAY back behind him at this elite, all lined up like the corner pocket in a game of 8-ball.

 

So I try a knockback . . . bounce he goes as he keeps BUTTON MASHING blindly.  Like some kind of console kiddie warrior..

 

I keep lining the sights up like a pool game, pop some heals to keep going as long as I can, knockback number two . . bounce he goes again, straight for the Elite.  No looking around on his part, just blind button mashing.

 

And so, to my disbelief, he STILL hasn't looked around as to WHY I'm knocking him back in a straight line . . . through two cooldowns, now up to number three:

 

Bounced back the third time into the arms of the big, white, undead "Gumby" . . . Bleaaaarrghhh!  stomp.

 

What a hoot.  He came back with two guildies (dps) to stomp me because he was having a rage fit.  Fun stuff.

 

Fun, fun stuff possible on "living, breathing" maps, instead of theme-park cleared go-cart ranges.  Adds to diversity as well, fitting with what I've heard in their world generator:  Each CW is different, different attributes, mobs, mob types, magic vs physical, etc.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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Funny that you think NPCs create 'living / breathing' worlds rather than direct player conflict unhampered the the themepark PVE trash that literally every MMO already does.

 

When people remember the good times in Darkfall / Shadowbane / Eve the absolute last thing they think of is anything related to PVE.

Edited by jacobin

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Funny that you think NPCs create 'living / breathing' worlds rather than direct player conflict unhampered the the themepark PVE trash that literally every MMO already does.

 

When people remember the good times in Darkfall / Shadowbane / Eve the absolute last thing they think of is anything related to PVE.

 

It's just a difference of opinion Jacobin.

 

And yeah, it's a simulated, virtual world.  It can either act like it to greater degree or to lesser degree.  I prefer greater, more "living", less Lego-dumb.

 

I've found mobs on PvP maps to NOT impede PvP dynamics.  Because of the Hazards they present, it causes more uncertainty . . . less ability for free-wheeling without paying attention to your surroundings..

 

Also, as a point of cynicism, generally speaking the MMO community isn't all that creative anymore.  It's all about Farmville, or pretending that lying / cheating on the Internet is clever/hard (lulz).  How to get the "insider information" first, perhaps through Beta participation, how to work out the farming routines then farm-zerg the maps on opening day.

 

Farmville.  That's what I see (too often) nowadays.  It's all about "the stuff" anymore.  "Gamers" have to be paid in some fashion to PvP.  /shrug  My first MMO was AC2, and I swapped to Darktide, PvP red everywhere server, including inside your Guild Hall.  No one got "paid" to PvP there.  If you stuck around it was because  you liked PvP . . . and finding your "tribe" there to watch your back and to run with.

 

But, I digress:

 

I hear what you are saying.  We just disagree on the key-point:  I don't see competitive PvP impacted by smarter mobs, more unpredictable mobs.  I see them as an evolutionary path for "virtual worlds".

 

That's all.

 

Art+Craft isn't going to blindly implement everything suggested on the Forums.  They'll pick and choose, if at all, what might make sense to them.

 

It's their game.

 

I'm just a Player voicing an opinion.

 

/waves

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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Farming mobs should be kept to the absolute minimum in a PvP game in my opinion. Otherwise you might as well go and play a PvE game instead.

EK's can have as many mobs as you like, just try and keep them out of the campaigns.

 

I didn't say "farming mobs", per se.

 

I used the term "Farmville" in the broader sense.  Which in Crowfall is going to be resources, yes?

 

Of course, if one of the Resources is Leather . . . . this might suggest to us there will be a fair amount of "mob farming" that might be going on. 

 

We just going to be chopping trees or digging ore out of the pixels under our feet?


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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I didn't say "farming mobs", per se.

 

I used the term "Farmville" in the broader sense.  Which in Crowfall is going to be resources, yes?

 

Of course, if one of the Resources is Leather . . . . this might suggest to us there will be a fair amount of "mob farming" that might be going on. 

 

We just going to be chopping trees or digging ore out of the pixels under our feet?

 

 

You can go chop trees and skin animals if you want.. I'll stay away from PvE features and instead loot what I need from dead bodies.

If ACE wants to force us to PvE in an obvious PvP game, I will try to aviod it at all if possible.

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Farming mobs should be kept to the absolute minimum in a PvP game in my opinion. Otherwise you might as well go and play a PvE game instead.

EK's can have as many mobs as you like, just try and keep them out of the campaigns.

 

I expect there to be some guilds that will focus primarily on the economic game that will be supplying those of us who don't enjoy crafting, farming or gathering. If rare reagents were available in the EK, they wouldn't be all that rare. I expect some tough NPC's to be in the campaigns but not for all guilds to be focusing on. Actually what I would rather do is just ambush the guilds that are farming them and then take the reagents for my guild.

Edited by arawulf

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let'm make'm however the heck they want. they're testing. I think it would be fair forusto whine, the minute ACE says; "this is how we're keeping it", & we don't like it.

 

not this again.

 

"its alpha, so any negative criticism is invalid and does not matter"

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Funny that you think NPCs create 'living / breathing' worlds rather than direct player conflict unhampered the the themepark PVE trash that literally every MMO already does.

 

When people remember the good times in Darkfall / Shadowbane / Eve the absolute last thing they think of is anything related to PVE.

 

Umm...EVE has PvE? Last I looked, to get some of the best recipes and some other goodies, you have to go on little jaunts that were filled with PvE enemies. There was even a term for people that engaged in this to the benefit of their guild/corp: Ratters, because the random NPC pirates were called rats.

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I'm not worried about this at all.  Mobs, when working properly, are adding slightly to the experience (especially relative to looting chests...).  Also, the form of the hunger dome is unique so not really anything to discuss yet.

 

Hard mobs are fine with me.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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You can go chop trees and skin animals if you want.. I'll stay away from PvE features and instead loot what I need from dead bodies.

If ACE wants to force us to PvE in an obvious PvP game, I will try to aviod it at all if possible.

 

You are making some arbitrary assumptions that have you pulled way out in left field I think.  No one suggested forcing you to play a certain way.

 

Aren't "PvE" dynamics in Crowfall a keystone fuel for the setup of PvP?   Reasons to be on the maps, patterns of movement, stockpiles of "booty", etc. 

 

In my mind you simply CAN'T disentangle PvE from PvP.  You mght choose to only engage in the one, but you'll be the benefactor in doing so to high degree from the PvE side.  It's how the game is being designed, yes?

 

The only place the statement "an obvious PvP game" has a best-fit is an FPS or MOBA, if the idea is an exclusive and only PvP model.

  • You break an MMORPG when you try to force fit it to play like an FPS / MOBA across the board.

In an FPS you don't have ANY other avenues for game play other than Pew Pew or maybe pew pew support (e.g. repairs). Period.  And that's fine, that's the only avenue of game-play available to logins in that type of game, by design.

 

In an MMORPG virtual world, with persistent character models and skill-path trees . . . it's always a "hybrid" situation in available game play.  Choices, avenues for PvE as well as PvP time.  Having the two INTERTWINED, by design.

 

And you NEED that desperately IMO . . . if the game is going to last for any length of time within the context of a growing and healthy population.  Being FUN for everyone based on personality, or even available time to play, mood of the moment or day, needing a change of pace for a while, whatever.

 

Note what I'm saying:  PvP IS a core part of Crowfall.  Obviously.  But it's not to an exclusionary degree you see in an FPS/MOBA, right?  There is Crafting, there are EKs . . .

 

. . . and that's all part of Sand Box.

 

You can claim your Heart is the most important organ in your body, but if I yank your Liver out  you'll die all the same.

 

This isn't about "making you" play a certain way.  It's about actually understanding how the body of Crowfall is going to live and breathe.

 

Which means you must have both.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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