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Recatek

Animation Locks Confirmed to Stay

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You certainly do state a lot of opinions as if they were facts.

 

Their decision is perfect valid. Flip-flopping on major design decisions is expensive and unproductive. They made their choice and I'm glad they're going to see it through before considering another change.

 

EDIT: The OP deleted their post, or had their post deleted, so my reply probably looks strange out of context.

Edited by recatek

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I'm happy there are and will likely stay animation locks as I prefer it. Would I play with no animations locks? Maybe. It's a tough call, would be based on how much movement there is probably. Animations locks are just tricky because you have to get animation speed into a pretty small range in order for it to be fun and skillful and I'm very doubtful ACE understands that.

 

Combat is a pretty tricky thing to figure out so honestly I think devs in all games should just make whatever the fVVVVVVVVVVVVVck they want to make. When I'm looking at games combat/targeting is one of the most important features and if I see something I don't like, I don't play. It really is that simple. Guild Wars 2 may have been a fun game, but I spent a couple hours during beta playing it and the combat was not for me so I emailed their CS and told them that their combat sucked and I got my money back. I watched some AA and passed right away, easy. I read about CU and knew it wasn't for me so I will never consider it.

 

Combat is pretty much just a feel thing and I'm still thinking 99% chance ACE gets it wrong, but animation locks are not what's the problem.


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I really don't understand where you're getting this whole idea from that animation locks in a combat system makes it less skill-based. I mean I kind of get your reasoning, but you're completely disregarding the skill that goes into properly timing your abilities and predicting your opponents and punishing their mistakes.  

 

The Dark Souls games have PVP that awards skillful and intelligent play. It's nothing but animation locks. Ever heard of Super Smash Bros Melee? Or any other fighter for that matter. Animation locks are in a lot of very competitive games.  

  

Thing is though, that an animation lock system requires a LOT more work to get it where it needs to be, where skillful and smart play is awarded and the gamefeel is good. And they'll be devoting the whole of next year to that, because it's so important to get it right.

Edited by Osegrim

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"we don't care who doesn't like it, as long as an equal or larger amount (what's good for the game) of arbitrary players likes it"

 

Right of the bat, It's obvious what kind of players do like animation locks and my magic palantir tells me, It's not the ones who would fuel a massive engine of political warfare and emotionally and skill wise great PvP, but instead settle for soft larping in EK and look at CWs as some kind of prolonged Battlegrounds with minecraft destruction.

 

 

Pretty sure that is business 101. Unless they magically find a way to please everyone and make some monstrosity without focus, they will end up disappointing at least one group or another.

 

Doubt it is "we don't care" but rather "has to be done to get a game out the door." It isn't their fault if you prefer something else or limit your options.

 

Not sure what the combat animation or style in general has to do with people enjoying or being cable of a PVP game with some depth. How many PVP games don't have animation locks of some sort that have fans here? DF and ...?

 

While I'm less skeptical having tried the combat myself, I still hope it has a ways to go as it isn't perfect for my tastes, but I'll see where it goes. Ultimately it's their game and they have to do what they believe it best for the overall experience, not what individuals prefer in entirely different games.

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I really don't understand where you're getting this whole idea from that animation locks in a combat system makes it less skill-based. I mean I kind of get your reasoning, but you're completely disregarding the skill that goes into properly timing your abilities and predicting your opponents and punishing their mistakes.  

 

The Dark Souls games have PVP that awards skillful and intelligent play. It's nothing but animation locks. Ever heard of Super Smash Bros Melee? Or any other fighter for that matter. Animation locks are in a lot of very competitive games.  

  

Thing is though, that an animation lock system requires a LOT more work to get it where it needs to be, where skillful and smart play is awarded and the gamefeel is good. And they'll be devoting the whole of next year to that, because it's so important to get it right.

 

In Dark Souls you're fighting 1 or 2 opponents at most, depending on the area (when phantoms invade). There is never a scenario where you're fighting 10 different players from every angle. It's worth to note, while Dark Souls utilizes animation lock, it also gives you a large assortment of tools to avoid damage (blocking, dodge rolling) and everyone has access to these tools. You can also cancel out of animations in DS, so there's that too.

 

Even in PvE DS throws small groups of enemies at you, because they realize that throwing dozens and dozens with animation locks would be ridiculous.

 

The real question is does animation lock make sense within the context of fighting dozens if not hundreds of people at the same time. This could easily become (If you're melee - eat poorly made socks, if you're ranged, stay frosty).

Edited by helix

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I'm okay with animation lock, but not in the way it's current implemented. You can have animation lock, and still have a lot of movement within it (look at BDO). Right now it's like standing still.

 

Yeah, absolutely. For example, holding a direction while you activate an ability to swing a sword should dash you a little bit forward as you swing, whereas pressing the ability button alone should hold you still as you swing. Similar to, say, Smash Bros. You're still animation-locked, but you have some control over your movement in the process. I find this is the best of both worlds.

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Yeah, absolutely. For example, holding a direction while you activate an ability to swing a sword should dash you a little bit forward as you swing, whereas pressing the ability button alone should hold you still as you swing. Similar to, say, Smash Bros. You're still animation-locked, but you have some control over your movement in the process. I find this is the best of both worlds.

 

I agree.  I don't mind the locks, but there should be some sort of movement involved.  


 

Formerly known as - AmazingTacoBurito

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In response to JTC's quote,

 

I do disagree that they'd have just as many people saying they picked the wrong direction if they went away from animation locks.  It's not like animation locks are the standard in western MMOs...

 

I myself would have preferred they went away from animation locks because more often than not it leads to a slower less mechanically intensive playstyle. 

 

For me pvp should always be about outskilling other people, if I didn't do something to outskill my opponent(s) I won't feel rewarded when I win.  So for me the ideal pvp game has a heavy mechanical skill requirement as well as a heavy tactical skill requirement.  I must know the ins and outs of the games and how to address the challenges that other players present to me, I must know how to mechanically execute the tactics I decide on, and the game must make it so that those tactics are complex and the execution is skillful.  This is the full pvp package to me.

 

Ideally a PvP centric mmo would make player skill really matter quite a lot because the most skilled players deserve to be at the top, and the experience becomes somewhat less authentic if people are being skill-capped by a lower skill-ceiling.  I also think it is tremendously hard to sell a pvp centric mmo that has some sorta hardcore pvp, if there isn't a high skill-ceiling because that in and of itself wouldn't make it very hardcore.  Without a high skill-ceiling being a king in crowfall would be like being a king in candyland. 

 

Now is it possibly to make a financially practical pvp mmo in this day and age with a lower skill-ceiling specifically designed for players who want the pace of pvp slowed down to where they can keep up, while being considered too slow for the really talented pvpers?  I honestly doubt it... I think it would end up like darkfall or a shadowbane emulator server. 

 

So whatever ACE decides to do with their combat, while they may not be going for some cutting edge esports crowd, they should certainly respect the idea of giving a pvp centric game a decently high skill-ceiling. 

 

I think animation locks can still be utilized in a way to keep the skill-ceiling relatively high... and it's far too early to be terribly concerned with what we've seen of the combat, but it definitely does need some serious adjustments.  They would need to speed the game up in general though.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The combat system should be fun, scalable and skill demanding yet approachable, whether there are animation locks or not probably does not matter.

 

The flaws of the current system state, IMO is that it does not provide you with a sense of complete control over your character and the TTK is too high.

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​​

I really don't understand where you're getting this whole idea from that animation locks in a combat system makes it less skill-based. I mean I kind of get your reasoning, but you're completely disregarding the skill that goes into properly timing your abilities and predicting your opponents and punishing their mistakes.

 

Then let me help you a little bit;

 

Animation Lock based combat sytems are node based.

  • You have to imagine it as a kind of a flowchart with determined yes/no and If/then entities, leading to variable but fixed paths. 
  • The player's skill consists of smashing buttons depending on the situation, following a certain skill-path while trying to be faster than other players doing so.
  • This necessarily leads to a very static movement, not only for the player but for everyone else involved. 
  • The only way to make this type of system "engaging" is shortening the animation times and deepening the decision nodes.
  • ​It is not very compatible with friendly fire
  • ​Leads to piling on top of each other
  • ​a.s.o.

​This being said, AL are psychologically speaking a cognitive bottle neck. It does not challenge players on cognitions we mostly enjoy to utilize. Player skill dimensions like e.g. motoric and cognitive spatial performances are are reduced to their minimum level, compared to orbital-like movement systems which consist of gradients instead of paths. Additionally, this causes certain other effects: it alienates the player with his environment, because your cognitions become narrowed down to a certain field of action, while at the same time removes the necessity to focus on other things (despite the fact that you can't, with a fixed system like this). Even adding animation-break outs or shortening them won't change these facts.

​Animation Locks in MMOs are originally from Asia due to the player base over there rather liking arcade (focused skill set) than wholesome systems (utilizing a broad level of cognitions),  and because it is far more accessible to players with a low skill cap, than a "Freeform skill system" (e.g. orbital/strafing movement). There is a reason why so many f2p games have it and it's not because the world elite of players gathers there to buy dry the item shop with their 1337 skills. That's why they love micro games like SC2, LoL, Aion, Item Shops, Farm and so on. [sc2 being the only skill worth game Asians being playing]

​ACE's decision to go with it is nothing more than aiming at mainstream. Claiming something else is completely delusional. Street Fighter 4 animations inside a FFA PvP mmo - my ass!

Edited by Qbs

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